Quentin,

In reply to your recent postings, here are my 'pronunciations' of the said words. My accent is a typical 'regionless' form of British English. [You might have to widen the message window if the Shavian words don't sit underneath the roman ones.]

word    work    York     bird     absurd     heard     murder     sir    early   butler   orderly
wxd     wxk   /jPk   bxd   absxd      hxd    mxdD    sx   xlI  butlD  PdDlI

mirror     piano^(instrument) piano ^{(softly, subdued)} young     news    a     choose     mews
mirD     pjAnO            pjynO                  juN      nVz    a    cMz       mVz

door     day     yes     knives    further    judge    yellow     suit    innovative
dP      dE    jes     nFvz    fxHD    JuJ     jelO     sMt   inavativ

With regard to stress, I would argue that a great deal of the stress can already be conveyed by using up, ado, err and array appropriately - even if ones pronunciation does not seem to differentiate between the two pairs.

Hugh Birkenhead

His iz mF fxst mesaJ t H grMp.  YlHO F hAv bin awX v H /SEvVn Alfabet sins F woz at skMl, F OnlI diskUvDd it on H intDnet His wIk.  F fFnd Hat H Alfabet iz sxprFziNlI IzI t lxn, n F Am enJqiN eksperimentiN wiH HIz fonts. 

mF nEm iz /pYl /denat n F liv in /hAlifAks, /west /yPkSD.  F Am 36 yCz Old n F wxk az a kompVtD sistamz divelapD.  F liv wiH mF pRtnD /pYla, n Qr tM dYtDz, /hilDI n /molI. 

enI koments on mF speliN R mOst welkam. 

wiH best wiSaz

/pYl

P.S.  I hope you can read this!

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----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Cutler

To: Dame Bollinger

Cc: Richard Cutler

Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:24 AM

Subject: Fw: [shavian] Hello

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Dennett

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 12:14 AM

Subject: [shavian] Hello

 helO evrIbodI! 

His iz mF fxst mesaJ t H grMp.  YlHO F hAv bin awX v H /SEvVn Alfabet sins F woz at skMl, F OnlI diskUvDd it on H intDnet His wIk.  F fFnd Hat H Alfabet iz sxprFziNlI IzI t lxn, n F Am enJqiN eksperimentiN wiH HIz fonts. 

mF nEm iz /pYl /denat n F liv in /hAlifAks, /west /yPkSD.  F Am 36 yCz Old n F wxk az a kompVtD sistamz divelapD.  F liv wiH mF pRtnD /pYla, n Qr tM dYtDz, /hilDI n /molI. 

enI koments on mF speliN R mOst welkam. 

wiH best wiSaz

/pYl

P.S.  I hope you can read this!

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Philip Newton

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 6:43 PM

Subject: Re: [shavian] Where are you? Shavian

On 9 May 01, at 19:08, cutler wrote:

> Dear Paul I cannot make out your address [/yPkSD.]

That's Yorkshire.

> wUd V lFk to tel me hQw V transliterate TIs wxrds:

I'll participate, too, if you don't mind. My native accent (from
childhood) is roughly "standard British" of some sort (non-rhotic).
This has been overlaid with an American accent through schooling, but I
write Shavian with the British influence (this shows, for example, in
the vowels which I distinguish).

I'll put each word on its own line. Sorry if that makes this message
longer in number of lines.

> yell
jel

> Yorkshire
/jPkSD

> butler
butlD

> boy
bq

> sir
sx

> twentieth
twentIiT

> cupola
don't know how to pronounce that :)

> Richard
/ricDd

> quest
kwest

> Ouida
/MIda

> yellow
jelO

> English
INliS

> fortuitous
fPtcMitas, or perhaps fPtVitas

> full
fUl

> apartheid
apRthFd (though I believe a more correct pronunciation is apRthEd or
apRthEt)

> yes
jes

> swim
swim

> egg
eg

> Mozart
/mOtsRt

> absurdly
abzxdlI

> judicial
JMdiSal

> energy
enDJI

> room
rMm

> home
hOm

> Whistler
/wislD

> Arkansas
/RkansY

> perpetual
pxpecUal

> news
nVz, definitely. (not nMz!)

> choose
cMz

> views
vVz

> epitome
apitamI

> tome
tOm

> come
kum

> dumb
dum

> saint
sEnt (but "sant" as part of a saint's name such as St. Joseph)

> Magdalen (the Oxford College)
/mYdlin

> shrew
SrM

> monsieur
misjx (perhaps)

> question
kwescan

> place
plEs

> Beethoven
/bEthOvan

> lewd
lVd

> surfeit
sxfat

> fistula
fistVla

> haute-couture
Not sure. Maybe YtkatVD

> dandy
dAndI

> quest
kwest (hey, we already had this one!)

> quell
kwel

> Quentin
/kwentin

> astute
astVt

> Raphael
/rAfAel

> failure
fEljD, or maybe fEljUD

> Arthur
/RTD

> Rimbaud
/rimbOd

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton

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I could use a Shaw Alphabet transcription of the Gettysburg Address for a page I am building.  Anyone want to give it a try?  --Steve

----- Original Message -----

From: Mitch Morris

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 9:44 PM

Subject: [shavian] Shavian, The list and me [font fix]

His iz sumTiN Hat F wuz TiNkiN AboQt tMdE Hat E wontd t sX. sumTiN Hat E HiNk H SavWn kOmVnitI nIdz iz E plEs t diskus genxul stuf. DiskuSin simulD t TOz mesiJ bPdz wX pIpul Just tYk AbQt stuf eksept Ql pOsts R in SavWn. F am mP Han wiliN t hOst suc E bPd on mF web sFt if pIpul won. UHXwiz wI kud Just Vz His list. nQ F wil stRt wun. EnI wun hC plE kompVtD gEmz? E Just got mist 3, wun Ysum game. enI wun wont t tYk abQt it? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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----- Original Message -----

From: kevin e bullock

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 1:20 PM

Subject: [shavian] Hello

gUd mPnIN yl.  I Just bIgAn /SEvWn E fVM dEz ugO. fP prAktis F hAv bin tEkIN yl mF nOts in it.  tylk tM jM sMn

 

/kevin buluk

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wX did V fFnd Qt abQt H Alfabet? woz it TrM hC P from /AndraklIz /n /H /lFan?

My name's Lee and I'm new to this Shavian eGroup. The following is my try at Shavian, also attached is a pdf file in case you can't read the LionsPaw font, hope this helps.

I've also tried to read the web pages that Scott Harrison put up, at http://www.mithrandir.com but can't figure out how to get his unicode fonts to work on my Mac.

Scott Harrison, if you see this, I'd really like to view your web pages if you can give me some pointers on how to get the fonts to display on my Mac. I only get question marks. I wrote you before, but didn't get a response. Write me at leehickenlooper@mac.com.

I used a modified CMU dictionary and Andy Callaway's Rosetta phonic translator on my Mac, running a emulator  called Virtual PC with Windows 98. Andy's Beta Rosetta program seems to work fine! I just wish I could translate native on the Mac, but can't find anyone yet who will share or sell their Macintosh translation program to me.

So here goes:

liNkunz Adres At getIzbxg, 1863

fYrskYr n sevun jirz ugO Qx foHxz brYt fYrT on His kontununt u nM nESun, kunsIvd un libxtI n dedukEtud t H propuziSun HAt Yl men or krIEtud Ikwul.

nQ wI or engEJd un u grEt sivul wYr, testiN weHx HAt nESun Yr enI nESun sO kunsIvd n sO dedukEtud kAn lYN endjUr. wI or met on u grEt bAtul fIld v HAt wYr. wI hAv kum t dedukEt u pYrSun v HAt fIld, Az u fFnul restiN-plEs fYr HOz hM hir gEv Her livz HAt HAt nESun mFt lFv. it iz YltugeHx fitiN n propx HAt wI SUd dM His.

but, un u lorJx sens, wI kAn not dedukEt --- wI kAn not konsukrEt --- wI kAn not hAlO --- His grQnd. H brEv men, liviN n ded, hM struguld hir, hAv konsukrEtud it, for ubuv Qx pUr pQx t Ad Yr dutrAkt. H wxld wil litul nOt, nYr lYN rumembx, wut wI sE hir, but it kAn nevx fxget wut HE did hir. it iz fYr us H liviN, rAHx, t bI dedukEtud hir t H unfiniSt wxk wic HE hM fYt hir hAv Hus for sO noblI udvAnst. it iz rAHx fYr us t bI hir dedukEtud t H grEt tAsk rumEniN bufYr us --- HAt frum HIz onxd ded wI tEk inkrIst divOSun t HAt koz fYr wic HE gEv H lAst fUl meZx v divOSun --- HAt wI hir hFlI rIzolv HAt HIz ded SAl not hAv dFd un vEn --- HAt His nESun, undx god, SAl hAv u nM bxT v frIdum --- n HAt guvxmunt v H pIpul, bF H pIpul, fYr H pIpul, SAl not periS frum H xT.

EbruhAm liNkun

[83%]
===

Lincoln's Address at Gettysburg, 1863

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate --- we can not consecrate --- we can not hallow --- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us --- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion --- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain --- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom --- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Abraham Lincoln

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Attachment converted: IMac:GettysburgAddressShavian.pdf (PDF /CARO) (00017F29)

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert McBroom

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 5:35 PM

Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian transcription needed

Lee -

I'm as new to this group as you are, but I will venture an opinion on your Gettysburg Address in spite of that. I assume your message was sent wanting some feedback.

I too am a Mac person, so I know how it feels to be left out of the action by all the Windows types. I envy your emulator. I have a DOS emulator, but not a Windows one.

I myself have created a little True Basic program to change Shavian back into an ersatz phonetic English, thus allowing me to quickly critique my Shavian work (and others).  I wish I knew enough write a program to translate in the other direction, but then, I'd never learn the forms, I'd just let the machine do it.

Here's what I think about the Address translation (although I not really sure whether I'm critiqueing your talents, or the Rosetta program's)

First,  liNkun's name is not "LinG-kun" unless maybe you are from Lon-G Island or Philadelphia.

fYrskYr, seems to me to be inappropriate, unless it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt giving the speech.  I would say  fPskP. This not only saves 2 key strokes, but produces the sound "four" instead of "fawr".

Where you do want the "Y" sound would be "cause", which your text renders kos.

The word sevun brings up a point that runs continuously through the translation: the substitution of the u  sound for the e sound or similar sounds. This produces a rather dullard tone to the speech: "guhvernmuhnt" instead of "guvernment"; "dedUHkate" instead of "dedekate";  and writing  un where  in should be  makes "in" into ""un."

When you write the English "are" as   or it reads to me "or". How about just plain R ?

And when you mean "or", but write Yr it sounds like "awr", where the one-stroke P is all that's needed.

Likewise, writing  jirz makes me think "yi-ers" when writing jCz saves a stroke and makes me think "y-ears."

The indefinite article "a" which you transcribe as u is - at least in my reading  of Androcles and later texts- by convention or tradition always written  a. 

The word  lFv should be  liv. ("live" with a short i)

The word Qx should be QD (according to Androcles, at least.) Following  the same source, hir

should read hC.

Finally, the text doesn't contain any "namer marks", so all capital letter indications are missing.

I didn't set out to be hypercritical, but more to sharpen my own skills.  Any feedback will be appreciated.

 - /bob /mek/brMm

 - Bob McBroom

My name's Lee and I'm new to this Shavian eGroup. The following is my try at Shavian, also attached is a pdf file in case you can't read the LionsPaw font, hope this helps.

I've also tried to read the web pages that Scott Harrison put up, at http://www.mithrandir.com but can't figure out how to get his unicode fonts to work on my Mac.

Scott Harrison, if you see this, I'd really like to view your web pages if you can give me some pointers on how to get the fonts to display on my Mac. I only get question marks. I wrote you before, but didn't get a response. Write me at leehickenlooper@mac.com.

I used a modified CMU dictionary and Andy Callaway's Rosetta phonic translator on my Mac, running a emulator  called Virtual PC with Windows 98. Andy's Beta Rosetta program seems to work fine! I just wish I could translate native on the Mac, but can't find anyone yet who will share or sell their Macintosh translation program to me.

So here goes:

liNkunz Adres At getIzbxg, 1863

fYrskYr n sevun jirz ugO Qx foHxz brYt fYrT on His kontununt u nM nESun, kunsIvd un libxtI n dedukEtud t H propuziSun HAt Yl men or krIEtud Ikwul.

nQ wI or engEJd un u grEt sivul wYr, testiN weHx HAt nESun Yr enI nESun sO kunsIvd n sO dedukEtud kAn lYN endjUr. wI or met on u grEt bAtul fIld v HAt wYr. wI hAv kum t dedukEt u pYrSun v HAt fIld, Az u fFnul restiN-plEs fYr HOz hM hir gEv Her livz HAt HAt nESun mFt lFv. it iz YltugeHx fitiN n propx HAt wI SUd dM His.

but, un u lorJx sens, wI kAn not dedukEt --- wI kAn not konsukrEt --- wI kAn not hAlO --- His grQnd. H brEv men, liviN n ded, hM struguld hir, hAv konsukrEtud it, for ubuv Qx pUr pQx t Ad Yr dutrAkt. H wxld wil litul nOt, nYr lYN rumembx, wut wI sE hir, but it kAn nevx fxget wut HE did hir. it iz fYr us H liviN, rAHx, t bI dedukEtud hir t H unfiniSt wxk wic HE hM fYt hir hAv Hus for sO noblI udvAnst. it iz rAHx fYr us t bI hir dedukEtud t H grEt tAsk rumEniN bufYr us --- HAt frum HIz onxd ded wI tEk inkrIst divOSun t HAt koz fYr wic HE gEv H lAst fUl meZx v divOSun --- HAt wI hir hFlI rIzolv HAt HIz ded SAl not hAv dFd un vEn --- HAt His nESun, undx god, SAl hAv u nM bxT v frIdum --- n HAt guvxmunt v H pIpul, bF H pIpul, fYr H pIpul, SAl not periS frum H xT.

EbruhAm liNkun

[83%]
===

Lincoln's Address at Gettysburg, 1863

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate --- we can not consecrate --- we can not hallow --- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us --- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion --- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain --- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom --- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Abraham Lincoln

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor            www.   
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Attachment converted: IMac:GettysburgAddressShavian.pdf (PDF /CARO) (00017F29)

--
- Robert McBroom
  Manager
  Onteora Mountain House
  Boiceville NY
  845-657-6233

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----- Original Message -----

From: Scott Harrison

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 10:57 AM

Subject: [shavian] Test message in UTF-8 format

Hi,

This is a message that should contain both Roman and Shavian (encoded at the Unicode points that are currently used).

Lincoln's Gettysburg Address
Shavian Translation Copyright (c) 1999 by Scott M Harrison.

·??????<>fontfamily>'?<>fontfamily> ·????????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ·???????<>fontfamily> 19, 1863 ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ·????????<>fontfamily>, ·???????????<>fontfamily>, ·???<>fontfamily>

??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>: ???????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>, ?<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??????????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>.

??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>. . .??????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>, ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily>. . .???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>. ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ????????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>.

??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>. ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ????????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>.

???<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>. . .??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily>. . .??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>. ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>, ?????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily> ????????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???????????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>. ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>, ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>, ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>.

??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>, ????<>fontfamily>, ?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>. ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>. . .???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>. . .???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>. . .???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>, ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>, ???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>. . .?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>. . .??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>. . .??<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>. . .???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>.

The above message was primarily in Shavian. The question is whether it works with all mailers.

--
Scott Harrison