----- Original Message -----

From: Scott Harrison

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 9:50 AM

Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian PDA font?

On Monday, May 21, 2001, at 03:34 , kevin e bullock wrote:

wat wud bI intxestIN iz E /SEvWn fYnt fP H /palm pFlut.  anIwun hxd uv suc u HIN?<>bigger>
 

Rob,

While you are of course completely correct on all the points you mentioned, it is little or nothing to do with the person who had the text transliterated. Rosetta uses the American English CMU dictionary, which was not built specifically for Shavian and its ingenious touches, such as compound vowels, namer dot It uses 'roll' to rhoticise instead. It also does not distinguish between 'up' and 'ado'.

Hugh B

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert McBroom

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 5:35 PM

Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian transcription needed

Lee -

I'm as new to this group as you are, but I will venture an opinion on your Gettysburg Address in spite of that. I assume your message was sent wanting some feedback.

I too am a Mac person, so I know how it feels to be left out of the action by all the Windows types. I envy your emulator. I have a DOS emulator, but not a Windows one.

I myself have created a little True Basic program to change Shavian back into an ersatz phonetic English, thus allowing me to quickly critique my Shavian work (and others).  I wish I knew enough write a program to translate in the other direction, but then, I'd never learn the forms, I'd just let the machine do it.

Here's what I think about the Address translation (although I not really sure whether I'm critiqueing your talents, or the Rosetta program's)

First,  liNkun's name is not "LinG-kun" unless maybe you are from Lon-G Island or Philadelphia.

fYrskYr, seems to me to be inappropriate, unless it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt giving the speech.  I would say  fPskP. This not only saves 2 key strokes, but produces the sound "four" instead of "fawr".

Where you do want the "Y" sound would be "cause", which your text renders kos.

The word sevun brings up a point that runs continuously through the translation: the substitution of the u  sound for the e sound or similar sounds. This produces a rather dullard tone to the speech: "guhvernmuhnt" instead of "guvernment"; "dedUHkate" instead of "dedekate";  and writing  un where  in should be  makes "in" into ""un."

When you write the English "are" as   or it reads to me "or". How about just plain R ?

And when you mean "or", but write Yr it sounds like "awr", where the one-stroke P is all that's needed.

Likewise, writing  jirz makes me think "yi-ers" when writing jCz saves a stroke and makes me think "y-ears."

The indefinite article "a" which you transcribe as u is - at least in my reading  of Androcles and later texts- by convention or tradition always written  a. 

The word  lFv should be  liv. ("live" with a short i)

The word Qx should be QD (according to Androcles, at least.) Following  the same source, hir

should read hC.

Finally, the text doesn't contain any "namer marks", so all capital letter indications are missing.

I didn't set out to be hypercritical, but more to sharpen my own skills.  Any feedback will be appreciated.

 - /bob /mek/brMm

 - Bob McBroom

My name's Lee and I'm new to this Shavian eGroup. The following is my try at Shavian, also attached is a pdf file in case you can't read the LionsPaw font, hope this helps.

I've also tried to read the web pages that Scott Harrison put up, at http://www.mithrandir.com but can't figure out how to get his unicode fonts to work on my Mac.

Scott Harrison, if you see this, I'd really like to view your web pages if you can give me some pointers on how to get the fonts to display on my Mac. I only get question marks. I wrote you before, but didn't get a response. Write me at leehickenlooper@mac.com.

I used a modified CMU dictionary and Andy Callaway's Rosetta phonic translator on my Mac, running a emulator  called Virtual PC with Windows 98. Andy's Beta Rosetta program seems to work fine! I just wish I could translate native on the Mac, but can't find anyone yet who will share or sell their Macintosh translation program to me.

So here goes:

liNkunz Adres At getIzbxg, 1863

fYrskYr n sevun jirz ugO Qx foHxz brYt fYrT on His kontununt u nM nESun, kunsIvd un libxtI n dedukEtud t H propuziSun HAt Yl men or krIEtud Ikwul.

nQ wI or engEJd un u grEt sivul wYr, testiN weHx HAt nESun Yr enI nESun sO kunsIvd n sO dedukEtud kAn lYN endjUr. wI or met on u grEt bAtul fIld v HAt wYr. wI hAv kum t dedukEt u pYrSun v HAt fIld, Az u fFnul restiN-plEs fYr HOz hM hir gEv Her livz HAt HAt nESun mFt lFv. it iz YltugeHx fitiN n propx HAt wI SUd dM His.

but, un u lorJx sens, wI kAn not dedukEt --- wI kAn not konsukrEt --- wI kAn not hAlO --- His grQnd. H brEv men, liviN n ded, hM struguld hir, hAv konsukrEtud it, for ubuv Qx pUr pQx t Ad Yr dutrAkt. H wxld wil litul nOt, nYr lYN rumembx, wut wI sE hir, but it kAn nevx fxget wut HE did hir. it iz fYr us H liviN, rAHx, t bI dedukEtud hir t H unfiniSt wxk wic HE hM fYt hir hAv Hus for sO noblI udvAnst. it iz rAHx fYr us t bI hir dedukEtud t H grEt tAsk rumEniN bufYr us --- HAt frum HIz onxd ded wI tEk inkrIst divOSun t HAt koz fYr wic HE gEv H lAst fUl meZx v divOSun --- HAt wI hir hFlI rIzolv HAt HIz ded SAl not hAv dFd un vEn --- HAt His nESun, undx god, SAl hAv u nM bxT v frIdum --- n HAt guvxmunt v H pIpul, bF H pIpul, fYr H pIpul, SAl not periS frum H xT.

EbruhAm liNkun

[83%]
===

Lincoln's Address at Gettysburg, 1863

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate --- we can not consecrate --- we can not hallow --- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us --- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion --- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain --- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom --- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Abraham Lincoln

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Attachment converted: IMac:GettysburgAddressShavian.pdf (PDF /CARO) (00017F29)

--
- Robert McBroom
  Manager
  Onteora Mountain House
  Boiceville NY
  845-657-6233

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 Bob,
 Thanks for your critiquing my first attempt at Shavian. You made  some valid  points. I've been fine  tuning my CMU dictionary since receiving your E-Mail.   Also, I realized  I need to learn to read  and write   without computer  assistance. As per your suggestion, I'm   adding  a namer  dot  to   all my proper  names  in  my dictionary too. I'd like to hear  your accent   from New York.   I'm in Utah and Lincoln does have a very slight  NG  to it here. It's not emphasized and is formed by the tongue getting prepared for the k sound that follows the n. I would like to have had preserved, with a phonic  recording  system such  as   Shavian, a record of how Abe  pronounced  his name. Again, thanks for caring enough to share your time with me.

Lee

===

Hugh,
Thanks for your email.  It's good to get a knowledgable response from someone with experience at Shavian.  However, after your explanation of the origins of the Gettysburg text, I feel a little like an art critic who's just discovered he's spent an hour critiquing a paint-by-numbers painting.

-Bob McBroom

Rob,

While you are of course completely correct on all the points you mentioned, it is little or nothing to do with the person who had the text transliterated. Rosetta uses the American English CMU dictionary, which was not built specifically for Shavian and its ingenious touches, such as compound vowels, namer dot It uses 'roll' to rhoticise instead. It also does not distinguish between 'up' and 'ado'.

Hugh B

 Bob,
 Thanks for your critiquing my first attempt at Shavian. You made  some valid  points. I've been fine  tuning my CMU dictionary since receiving your E-Mail.   Also, I realized  I need to learn to read  and write   without computer  assistance. As per your suggestion, I'm   adding  a namer  dot  to   all my proper  names  in  my dictionary too. I'd like to hear  your accent   from New York.   I'm in Utah and Lincoln does have a very slight  NG  to it here. It's not emphasized and is formed by the tongue getting prepared for the k sound that follows the n. I would like to have had preserved, with a phonic  recording  system such  as   Shavian, a record of how Abe  pronounced  his name. Again, thanks for caring enough to share your time with me.

Lee

===

Hugh,
Thanks for your email.  It's good to get a knowledgable response from someone with experience at Shavian.  However, after your explanation of the origins of the Gettysburg text, I feel a little like an art critic who's just discovered he's spent an hour critiquing a paint-by-numbers painting.

-Bob McBroom

Rob,

While you are of course completely correct on all the points you mentioned, it is little or nothing to do with the person who had the text transliterated. Rosetta uses the American English CMU dictionary, which was not built specifically for Shavian and its ingenious touches, such as compound vowels, namer dot It uses 'roll' to rhoticise instead. It also does not distinguish between 'up' and 'ado'.

Hugh B

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----- Original Message -----

From: Mitch Morris

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:14 PM

Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian, The list and me [font fix]

F cekd n nO, F kant canJ Just H font v H mesaJiz, but F kan alQ /h.t.m.l. t bI Vzd in pOsts, sO pIpul kan canJ H fOnt AprOpreatlI.
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Hugh Birkenhead" Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian, The list and me [font fix] Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:55:20 +0100 F hAv AkSalI set up a bPd on a test sFt Just rIsantlI VziN 'phpBB' - cek Qt www.shavian.f2s.com/phpBB/index.php/. problam iz F got stuk bikoz F kUdant get H kontents v H pOsts t apC in a /SEvIan font wiHQt evrITiN els on H pEJ apCiN in /SEvIan Az wel! duz 'UBB' alQ V t cEnJ H font fEs fP pOstiNz? /hV ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitch Morris To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian, The list and me [font fix] > > > > TaNks fP rIplFiN.

> > F am planiN on VziN UBB fP H mesiJbPd. > H bPd wil bI at www.PhantomMX.com n wil > bI up sMn. > > /mist /3 iz a puzul-advencx gEm. E am sDprizd Hat /V hav not hxd v /mist. > Az fP H FPS F lFk /kwEk /3 n /trFbz /2. > > F wil put up H bPd sMn. > > -mic >

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Hugh Birkenhead" > Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com > To: > Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian, The list and me [font fix] > Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:51:50 +0100 > > d/V nO wot - F TiNk His mAn hAz hit H nEl on H hed. F'm SUD HX'z rMm in His > list fP kAZMal, infPmativ n amVziN diskuSan insted v H VZMal > fanetiks-rilEtid rAmbliN? > > rFt, nQ it's bIn saJestid... > > /mic, V sE V kAn hOst a diskuSan bPd on jP webspEs - wot diskuSan bPd softwX > R V TiNkiN v VziN? F hAv a pxfekt saJescan YlredI - gO t > www.fearfulsilence.co.uk n cek Qt H /fPam opSan on H left-hAnd menV. His iz, > F TiNk, a grEt fPmAt t Vz. if V'd lFk F'l ysk H sFt webmystD wic softwX it > iz n hQ t get it. > > F TiNk HAt I-mEl lists lFk His wun kAnot rIalI rFval mesiJ bPdz, in txmz v > kapAsatI n YlsO H difDant topiks HAt pOsts kAn bI sPtid intM. > > F plE kampVtD gEms (Az V mFt hAv figDd Qt from H websFt liNk F gEv V > abuv)!wot tFp v gEm iz /mist 3? At H mOmant F'm sumwot intM 1st-pxsan-SMtDz > lFk /unrIl /tUDnamant. in H pyst F hAv plEd plentI v /kwEk /2 Az wel. > > /hV > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mitch Morris > To: shavian@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 9:44 PM > Subject: [shavian] Shavian, The list and me [font fix] > > > His iz sumTiN Hat F wuz TiNkiN AboQt tMdE Hat E wontd t sX. sumTiN Hat E > HiNk H SavWn kOmVnitI nIdz iz E plEs t diskus genxul stuf. DiskuSin simulD t > TOz mesiJ bPdz wX pIpul Just tYk AbQt stuf eksept Ql pOsts R in SavWn. F am > mP Han wiliN t hOst suc E bPd on mF web sFt if pIpul won. UHXwiz wI kud Just > Vz His list. nQ F wil stRt wun. EnI wun hC plE kompVtD gEmz? E Just got mist > 3, wun Ysum game. enI wun wont t tYk abQt it? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your > FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

-

PRONUNCIATION versus GRAMMAR

Paige Gabhart writes: I believe the idea that Shavian spells everything one way is clearly wrong and not necessary for good communication.

In my country where there are eleven official languages, standard PRONUNCIATION is essential for communication.  English is the lingua franca of the courts, parliament, schools and universities most of the population are trying to deal with a language that is not their own. English taught by non-English teachers leads to distortion of the language, which is becoming unrecognisable in some instances.  Even newscasters can be unintelligible.  We hear that a bed flew into a Boeing, The President unvealed a plague and other misleading information, the meaning of which must be guessed at.   Bad grammar is far less misleading.

As I aim at using Shavian for teaching by writing it under the word, it is imperative that a standard pronunciation be agreed on for the purpose. Since all traditional alphabet printing adheres to traditional English spelling as used in the Oxford English Dictionary, it is the pronunciation guide of the OED that I intend to use.  Swerving from this can only lead to confusion, as there are so many accents and variations around. Robert Burns might like all spelling to be like his own:     

O wad some Powr the giftie gie us

To see oursels as others see us!

It wad frae mony a blunder free us,

And foolish notion.

 

If one is using the Shavian symbols as a game played as a hobby, it is interesting and amusing to hear the different accents of Australia, the Deep South of America and Oxford  English, but these variations have to be for the pleasure of advanced students who have mastered a standard pronunciation. LAcadémie Française was formed by the Cardinal de Richelieu in 1635 to allay the chaos caused by erratic spelling and pronunciation that made French almost unintelligible to the French. Standardisation of spelling et cetera saved the country millions. The whole purpose of Shavian is to obviate ambiguity.  The problem of ambiguity would fall away if each sound were to have a symbol of its own. The sound of the symbol would be inflexible  it would be foolish to re-create a possibility of ambiguity in spelling. 

 I believe that Shavian should standardise spelling to suit the  pronunciation of the English language most easily understood by those who do not have English as their first language and have difficulty in grasping the meaning of it. 

 Remember that people never use words they do not know how to pronounce and so vocabulary dwindles and common expletives are used instead of meaningful words.  Whole film scripts are made up of oaths and obscenities to characterise people unable better to express themselves.

 May I have your comments and transliteration to the Shavian alphabet of the two sentences:

A bird flew into a Boeing,  & The President unveiled a plaque.

 ---- Original Message -----

From: Paige Gabhart

To: shavian@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:07 AM

Subject: Re: [shavian] A kwCi

At 05:46 PM 5/29/2001 -0400, you wrote:

Am I correct in concluding that, if Shavian were the "kQn v H relm ," this program

(snip)

3) ...would achieve almost complete accuracy, because every word has only one spelling, and its spelling is not context-dependant.

I would have to say "3)" above is not correct.  The posts on this site in Shavian quite regularly spell words differently than I would.  When the differences are not due to their or my lack of familiarity with Shavian, it appears to be because they pronounce the words differently than I do. 

In the Quikscript Manual, Kingsley Read wrote that spelling should not be a cultural fetish.  I believe he meant that spelling should be permitted to reflect the speech of the writer.  It should not be imposed from on high by teachers and dictionaries, and its importance should not be over-emphasized, as it is now.  After all, given the poor correspondence between the roman alphabet and English phonemes, a "good speller" is just someone with a better memory than average. 

The only way to reach one "standard" spelling per word is to attempt to impose a standard speech on English speakers, and then you have the impossible task of choosing whose speech to emulate. Additionally, since the English-speaking world has no equivalent of the Academie Francaise, who would enforce this choice?

I do not find variant spellings much of a problem.  First, the actual number of variants is not all that large in a typical piece of writing.  Secondly, when you do encounter a word spelled differently than you would spell it, you can almost always decipher it.  Generally, it merely causes a temporary slowing in reading speed.

In closing, I believe the idea that Shavian spells everything one way is clearly wrong and not necessary for good communication.


Paige Gabhart

- /bob /mk/brMm
  /wUdstak  /nV /jDk

"wun simpol Az az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
                         - /gRJ /bxnRd /SP

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