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| 1085 |
From: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:20am
Subject: Re: Why on earth use Shavian for Esperanto?
|
| |
Je Ä´aÅdo, la 14a de Junio 2001 02:47 am, Scott Harrison skribis:
[on extending Shavian if using it for other languages]
> This seems the logical thing to do. This is the way I would go about
> doing it. However, if we take this to extremese, are we not just
> redoing IPA?
Ultimately, I suppose yes. We may as well just write in IPA and get it over
with. :) Or, of course, redo IPA in a more consistent, logical fashion (Ã la
Shavian's tall/short and up/down distinctions). Right now it seems at times
like a hodgepodge of random characters, quite frightening to behold.
But then, when you need to list thousands of possible sound variations,
things to get a bit complicated. :(
> There is a font on my web page that was created by Phillip Driscoll
> that is Arial and Shavian with Roman and Shavian letters in both their
> proper Unicode places.
Hot diggity, thanks! On my way now...
-- brion vibber (brion@p... / vibber@u...)
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| 1086 |
From: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:52am
Subject: Shavian Unicode test
|
| |
Well, I hope I don't destroy anyone's computer doing this... ^_^
Begin test:
[ îœ îœ—îœîœžîœ !]
[ îœ–îœ îœ™ îœîœ—îœ…îœ îœ îœ†îœ¡îœîœ®îœŸ  ·.]
End test.
Should have read (but in actual Shavian):
[helM t evrIwan!]
[His iz a test v SEvWn in ·VnikMd.]
Let me know if your screen melted, if it seemed to be okay, or if... the
consequences are too terrible to contemplate. (Note that in some cases you
may need to force your mail reader or web browser into using the UTF-8
encoding. Some programs may just not like Unicode however.)
(Scott: I'm having trouble with cshaws2u.ttf - the Roman characters show up
as empty blocks instead of letters. I'll test it on Windows in the morning,
it may be a problem with the TrueType rendering library I have.)
-- brion vibber (brion@p... / vibber@u...)
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| 1087 |
From: <teraiten@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:30pm
Subject: Re: The difference between OO and OO and Esperanto
|
| |
--- In shavian@y..., Philip Newton <philip.newton@d...> wrote:
> teraiten@y... wrote:
> > 'uu'
>
> I think that's pronounced similar to the German 'ü', isn't it? If
so, it's
> not particularly close to the English sound in "bOOk". Sorry.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
Yes it is. Too bad.
Ewout
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| 1088 |
From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@c...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Outlook Express can do Unicode Shavian mail
|
| |
Eudora 5.0
Paige Gabhart
At 08:45 AM 6/14/01 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
> I have tested Outlook Express on Windows NT with the keyboard
>driver I made that outputs Shavian at its "proper" Unicode points. I
>can both send and receive Shavian mail in Unicode with it. This means
>one can freely mix Shavian and Roman characters in the same text without
>silly font changes.
>
> What mailers are people using?
>
>--
>Scott Harrison
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
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| 1089 |
From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 9:21pm
Subject: an anivxsDI lMmz
|
| |
|
an anivxsDI lMmz
haz it okxd t aniwun Hat nekst jC mRks H
40T anivxsDI of dC old /andrOklIz?
fPtI! Just Hink v it! H /SEvWn /Alfabet,
bPn in H daz of H kOld wR n hot led tFp, n nQ stil alFv in H EJ v
glObalizESun, diJitFzd karaktxs n desktop publiSiN.
jet it sIms, in Yl HOz 40 jCs, nOwun haz
fQnd a wE to distribMt, popVlDFz, - dX /F sE it alQd? - mRket His
treZur.
/F nO Hat wI /amxikans R alwEs akVzd v
trFiN t txn evriHiN into munI, but fP fOx dekEds "fET and gUd
wxks" has not ben inuf to put /SEvWn bifP H Jenxal publik. Aftx
almOst hAf a sencxi, His ekselent FdW stil lANwiSes in H hAndz
v liNwists, dilatantz n eksentriks. (/F inklud mFself in HX
sumwX).
sO hM iz QD mRket? /fP stRtxz, hQ abQt
"/SEvCn: ekzekVtiv SPthand fP H OvD-wxked
/c/I/O."
kant V sI H Adz in H /wal /strIt
/JPnal?
rFt 30% les!
sE mP!
P
gO ahed, tEk nOts in Hat
biznes mItiN
n stil kIp VD HYtz t VDself.
F kant spIk fP H rest v H planet, but hC
in H /V/s/E, biznes tFps - espeSWli upx mAneJment - R alwEz tEkiN
trEniN in sum nV fad - al on H JustifikESun Hat it wil inkrIs HX
blesed "prOduktiviti."
tM krIEt HIz "/SEvWn /seminRs"
al wun nIdz iz sum dIsent tIciN matxWlz (cRts, ovxhedz, wxkbUks,
kwizez &) n a hotel konfrens rMm. v kRs, H AdvxtFziN wUd hav t
inklMd tetimOnWls. aniwun Qt HX kX t rFt
wun?
-bob mkbrMm
|
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| Attachment: (application/mac-binhex40) Sh_logo.72 [not stored] |
--
- Robert McBroom
Manager
Onteora Mountain House
Boiceville NY
845-657-6233
|
|
| 1090 |
From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@c...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:22am
Subject: Re: an anivxsDI lMmz
|
| |
Bob:
You've expressed some interesting ideas about marketing Shavian.
Regarding the point that business men might like to use Shavian: As
other people have stated here recently, Quikscript really works better
for handwriting as a form of shorthand than Shavian. It is much
more cursive than Shavian -- the letters naturally join with each other
so one can write faster as you do not have all the pen lifts you get in
Shavian.
I used Quikscript in law school 15 years ago to take notes when the
professors started talking too fast. Once I loaned my notes to a
student who had missed a class, without considering that about a third of
them were in Quikscript. The next day she gave them back with a
comment along the lines of, "Thanks, but they didn't help me
much. What is this anyway?" I explained it, but she
showed no curiousity about learning it herself.
You live in New York. I grew up in southern Indiana near
Kentucky. My accent is southern/midwestern. I had trouble
reading your post due to some of the differences I note below. My
question is was this intentional on your part and an accurate depiction
of your accent?
I noticed that you seemed to consistently use
"a" where I would have used
"A." This makes for some
strange words. For example, what I could only spell in Roman
as "fud" for "fad" or "hus" for
"has." The word "occurred" which I would start
with "a" or possibly
"O" you start with the
vowel sound in "hot," namely:
"o". Another example of the same usage: the word
"old", which I pronounce with a long "o", you spelled
not with "O" but with
"o."
Since my usage of Mr. Reed's alphabets has been primarily limited
to myself and a few letters years ago to penpals, I am curious whether
these differences indicate more of a need for standardized spelling than
I thought would be necessary.
Paige Gabhart
At 04:21 PM 6/14/2001 -0400, you wrote:
an anivxsDI
lMmz
haz it okxd t aniwun Hat nekst jC mRks H 40T anivxsDI of dC old
/andrOklIz?
fPtI! Just Hink v it! H /SEvWn /Alfabet, bPn in H daz of H kOld wR n hot
led tFp, n nQ stil alFv in H EJ v glObalizESun, diJitFzd karaktxs n
desktop publiSiN.
jet it sIms, in Yl HOz 40 jCs, nOwun haz fQnd a wE to distribMt,
popVlDFz, - dX /F sE it alQd? - mRket His treZur.
/F nO Hat wI /amxikans R alwEs akVzd v trFiN t txn evriHiN into munI, but
fP fOx dekEds "fET and gUd wxks" has not ben inuf to put /SEvWn
bifP H Jenxal publik. Aftx almOst hAf a sencxi, His ekselent FdW stil
lANwiSes in H hAndz v liNwists, dilatantz n eksentriks. (/F inklud
mFself in HX sumwX).
sO hM iz QD mRket? /fP stRtxz, hQ abQt "/SEvCn: ekzekVtiv SPthand fP
H OvD-wxked /c/I/O."
kant V sI H Adz in H /wal /strIt /JPnal?
rFt 30% les!
sE mP!
P
gO ahed, tEk nOts in Hat biznes mItiN
n stil kIp VD HYtz t VDself.
F kant spIk fP H rest v H planet, but hC in H /V/s/E, biznes tFps -
espeSWli upx mAneJment - R alwEz tEkiN trEniN in sum nV fad - al on H
JustifikESun Hat it wil inkrIs HX blesed
"prOduktiviti."
tM krIEt HIz "/SEvWn /seminRs" al wun nIdz iz sum dIsent tIciN
matxWlz (cRts, ovxhedz, wxkbUks, kwizez &) n a hotel konfrens rMm. v
kRs, H AdvxtFziN wUd hav t inklMd tetimOnWls. aniwun Qt HX kX t rFt
wun?
-bob mkbrMm
- Robert McBroom
Manager
Onteora Mountain House
Boiceville NY
845-657-6233
|
|
| 1091 |
From: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Androcles trustee's edition
|
| |
 îœîœžîœ .  îœ
îœ”îœ›îœ‚îœ îœ‰   îœ‚îœšîœ€îœ îœ
Â·îœ˜îœŸîœ‹îœžîœ™îœ‚îœ”îœ¡îœ Â·îœŸ · · 
îœîœ®îœŸ  
  îœ‚îœšîœ€îœ îœ îœŽ
îœîœ îœ îœ—îœ‹îœ–îœ†îœ™îœŸ  îœîœ
îœ. îœîœ îœîœ¥    
îœîœ”îœ,
îœŠîœ£îœ îœ¢ îœ„îœšîœ îœ£îœŽîœ«îœ îœ•îœ¢îœ îœ’îœ™îœŸîœ îœ îœŸîœ¥.
(helO evrIwan. F waz lUkIN fP a kopI v /AndraklEz /n
/H /lFan in SEvWn n kEm akros a kopI v H crustIz ediSan fP TxtI pQndz. HAtz
tM ric fP mF pP wylat, but F Tot uHxz mFt want t nM.)
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?bi=60228668
-- · ·îœîœ– (brion@pobox.com / vibber@usc.edu)
|
|
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| 1092 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:23pm
Subject: Re: Androcles trustee's edition
|
| |
|
HAt's strEnJ - F kAn sI H /SEvIan kAraktDz on mF skrIn nQ wXAz in H pyst HE'v SOd up Az kwescan mRks...
hQ mFt F mEk Vs v H /VnikOd /SEvIan font in mF rFtiNz? F'm runiN /windOz 98. F rIalI wUd luv t mEk Vs v it!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:27 PM
Subject: [shavian] Androcles trustee's edition
 îœîœžîœ .  îœ
îœ”îœ›îœ‚îœ îœ‰   îœ‚îœšîœ€îœ îœ
Â·îœ˜îœŸîœ‹îœžîœ™îœ‚îœ”îœ¡îœ Â·îœŸ · · 
îœîœ®îœŸ    îœ‚îœšîœ€îœ îœ
 îœîœ îœ îœ—îœ‹îœ–îœ†îœ™îœŸ 
îœîœ îœ. îœîœ îœîœ¥  
  îœîœ”îœ, îœŠîœ£îœ îœ¢ îœ„îœšîœ îœ£îœŽîœ«îœ
îœ•îœ¢îœ îœ’îœ™îœŸîœ îœ îœŸîœ¥.
(helO
evrIwan. F waz lUkIN fP a kopI v /AndraklEz /n /H /lFan in SEvWn n kEm
akros a kopI v H crustIz ediSan fP TxtI pQndz. HAtz tM ric fP mF pP
wylat, but F Tot uHxz mFt want t nM.)
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?bi=60228668
-- · ·îœîœ– (brion@pobox.com / vibber@usc.edu)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| 1093 |
From: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 0:55am
Subject: Re: Androcles trustee's edition
|
| |
Hugh Birkenhead skribis:
> hQ mFt F mEk Vs v H /VnikOd /SEvIan font in mF
rFtiNz? F'm runiN /windOz 98. F rIalI wUd luv t mEk Vs v it!
[unicode]  îœîœ   , 'îœ
îœ€îœ£îœ îœîœ¤îœŒîœ—    îœîœ
îœîœ«îœîœ« îœ
http://moisty.org/shavian/unicode.php îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ¯  îœ‚îœ£îœ îœŸ îœ€îœ¡îœ…îœ îœƒîœžîœ£îœ•. îœ
îœ•îœ îœŸîœ¤  îœ–îœ îœ’îœ«îœ‚îœ… ( îœ)...
[lionspaw] if nutIN els wxks, F'v put tOgeHx a kwik
n dxtI kanvxtx At http://moisty.org/shavian/unicode.php
HAt V kAn kut n pEst frum. let mI nO if it wxks (P not)...
Also, see Scott's page
http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html for some links to some
Unicode editors; but I don't know how unwieldy it is to use them directly
without a keyboard driver, which doesn't appear to be available for Win98
so far.
--  îœîœ– (brion@pobox.com / vibber@usc.edu)
|
|
|
| 1094 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 2:06am
Subject: Re: Androcles trustee's edition
|
| |
On Sunday, June 17, 2001, at 01:55 , Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
> Hugh Birkenhead skribis:
> > hQ mFt F mEk Vs v H /VnikOd /SEvIan font in mF rFtiNz? F'm runiN
> /windOz 98. F rIalI wUd luv t mEk Vs v it!
>
> [unicode]  îœîœ   ,
'îœ îœ€îœ£îœ îœîœ¤îœŒîœ—   
îœîœ îœîœ«îœîœ« îœ˜îœ http:
> //moisty.org/shavian/unicode.php îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ¯  îœ
 îœ€îœ¡îœ…îœ îœƒîœžîœ£îœ•. îœ”îœ—îœ îœ•îœ îœŸîœ¤ 
> îœ–îœ îœ’îœ«îœ‚îœ… ( îœ)...
>
> [lionspaw] if nutIN els wxks, F'v put tOgeHx a kwik n dxtI kanvxtx At
> http://moisty.org/shavian/unicode.php HAt V kAn kut n pEst frum. let mI
> nO if it wxks (P not)...
>
> Also, see Scott's page http://www.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html
> for some links to some Unicode editors; but I don't know how unwieldy
> it is to use them directly without a keyboard driver, which doesn't
> appear to be available for Win98 so far.
>
> --  îœîœ– (brion@pobox.com / vibber@usc.edu)
>
Does the Unicode driver I created on NT work on Windows 98? It is also
on my page. I only have NT so cannot test it on other Windows platforms.
--Scott
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| 1095 |
From: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 9:32am
Subject: Re: Androcles trustee's edition
|
| |
Je Sabato, la 16a de Junio 2001 06:06 pm, vi skribis:
> Does the Unicode driver I created on NT work on Windows 98? It is also
> on my page. I only have NT so cannot test it on other Windows platforms.
I don't think so. Windows 98 uses a different system for the keyboard drivers
- they're all .kbd files, a few hundred bytes long, and certainly not DLLs -
so I can't even find a way to drop it into the system. Of course, if
Microsoft had made Win95 the last vestige of the 16-bit Windows lineage like
they'd originally planned, we wouldn't have this problem, everybody using
Windows would be using a version of NT by now. >:/
Oh by the way, I figured out the problem with the font - I was installing the
Unicode-ONLY font, which naturally didn't have any Roman characters. (Whoops)
I installed cshaw2b.ttf, and it works fine. (Though it has a 0 where / should
be, which is a little odd.)
-- brion vibber (brion@p... / vibber@u...)
|
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| 1096 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 11:58pm
Subject: Note re: Shavian Message Boards
|
| |
Hi,
Just a note to all those who were unaware, that the Shavian *message boards*
are now up and running. They can be accessed at this address:
http://www.shavian.f2s.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi
Be aware you need the *Lionspaw* font installed to use them.
I'm hoping the boards will bring together this little 'community' we have
here. Do give them a try - they're still under development, so I will need
feedback to make them work even better for everyone.
Thanks,
Hugh
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| 1097 |
From: Phillip Driscoll <phild@c...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 4:15am
Subject: Re: Androcles trustee's edition
|
| |
The zero and slash have been corrected. Sorry about that.
--Phil
-----Originala Mesajxo-----
De: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Al: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Dato: Dimancxo 17a de junio 2001 4:30 atm
Temo: Re: [shavian] Androcles trustee's edition
> <snip>
>
>Oh by the way, I figured out the problem with the font - I was installing
the
>Unicode-ONLY font, which naturally didn't have any Roman characters.
(Whoops)
>I installed cshaw2b.ttf, and it works fine. (Though it has a 0 where /
should
>be, which is a little odd.)
>
>-- brion vibber (brion@p... / vibber@u...)
|
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| 1098 |
From: cutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Initials, Esperanto et cetera
|
| |
The Shavian Alphabet was thought up by George Bernard Shaw to make
communication easier and preserve the classics when Shakespeare becomes as
remote to future generations as Chaucer is now. What, I wonder, would he
think of all the mad initials that have come to cloud communication of every
kind, when in his day Esq., was as much as people would accept. Shaw was
very, very well known and famous enough to be a household word, by the time
he became known as G.B.S. Intitials have, since, become a new language.
How arrogant to imagine that everyone has the patience to learn them. One
could as easily acquire a splendid new word with a real meaning. Nothing in
Monsieur Vibber's message means anything to anyone, like myself, who is
unprepared to explore the meaning of things like NT, DLL, ttf., ita,
IPA,CSIR. Perhaps most people know what IRS, FBI, AIDS & CIA stand for, but
it is a complete waste of overburdened brain-power to go on bothering about
every little organisation that is giving itself a set of initials instead
of a decent name. I noted the decline of a documentary film company that
called itself RDL; that pulled itself back onto the market by changing the
name to Raintree. One remembers Raintree, but cannot think of the sequence
of RDL.If it is too much trouble to write the whole name, Windows 95 & 98
have an excellent MACRO control that will do it for you. I am using
Windows Millennium and this -apparently - advanced programme produces your
Unicode as a set of squares. Please tell this ignoramus what Unicode is.
I regret that I cannot believe that Esperanto will ever be universally used
as Dr Ludovic Zamenhof, its ingenious inventor, imagined it could. Esperanto
is an artificial language. Although it is based on word roots common to
all major European tongues and despite the sound basic theory for the need
for an international means of communication, Esperanto, like Volapük before
it, failed because it is an artificial language. Only enthusiasts who go
out of their way to make a special study of it, use it. Hope for its
survival has endured since 1887, but it becomes increasingly apparent that
even as an auxiliary language, an artificial language has even less chance
than Erse, Provencal, Koisan, Basque, Pedi, Armorican or Cymric of
continuing its existence.
English is not an artificial language and reforms, which aid the teaching of
it - like the unambiguous Shavian Alphabet- should enhance its usefulness
if, like Esperanto, it is not to become the province of those who use it as
a game. I believe that, if used as teaching tool to second language learners
and children, it could be of use to the millions OBLIGED to use English if
they are to advance themselves in the world of which English has become the
lingua franca.
Do forgive my ignorance. Regards Quentin Kyle C/o cutler@i....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brion L. VIBBER" <brion@p...>
To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Androcles trustee's edition
> Je Sabato, la 16a de Junio 2001 06:06 pm, vi skribis:
> > Does the Unicode driver I created on NT work on Windows 98? It is also
> > on my page. I only have NT so cannot test it on other Windows
platforms.
>
> I don't think so. Windows 98 uses a different system for the keyboard
drivers
> - they're all .kbd files, a few hundred bytes long, and certainly not
DLLs -
> so I can't even find a way to drop it into the system. Of course, if
> Microsoft had made Win95 the last vestige of the 16-bit Windows lineage
like
> they'd originally planned, we wouldn't have this problem, everybody using
> Windows would be using a version of NT by now. >:/
>
> Oh by the way, I figured out the problem with the font - I was installing
the
> Unicode-ONLY font, which naturally didn't have any Roman characters.
(Whoops)
> I installed cshaw2b.ttf, and it works fine. (Though it has a 0 where /
should
> be, which is a little odd.)
>
> -- brion vibber (brion@p... / vibber@u...)
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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| 1099 |
From: Brion L. VIBBER <brion@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 5:49pm
Subject: Re: Initials, Esperanto et cetera
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Je Ä´aÅdo, la 21a de Junio 2001 09:06 am, vi skribis:
> Intitials have, since, become a new
> language. How arrogant to imagine that everyone has the patience to learn
> them. One could as easily acquire a splendid new word with a real meaning.
Such as 'radar' and 'laser'?
> Nothing in Monsieur Vibber's message means anything to anyone, like myself,
> who is unprepared to explore the meaning of things like NT, DLL, ttf.,
> ita, IPA,CSIR.
I'm sorry about your limited vocabulary. Perhaps you should consult a
computing glossary? Would it terribly help if I had said New Technology,
Dynamic Link Library, and TrueType Font?
> If it is too much trouble to write the whole
> name, Windows 95 & 98 have an excellent MACRO control that will do it for
> you.
Likewise, I'm sure it can expand the acronyms on your side quite easily.
> I am using Windows Millennium and this -apparently - advanced
> programme produces your Unicode as a set of squares.
Are you using an appropriate Shavian font with Unicode characters in your
mail reader? From your description I would guess that you aren't. However,
thank you for your polite notice that the Unicode characters are not properly
displayed for everyone; this is part of the reason I have included both
Unicode and pseudo-Latin-1 characters in my recent messages.
Latin-1 refers to the regular set of characters used by 8-bit Western
European computer fonts. By pseudo-Latin-1 I mean the characters that would
appear as aAbcC etc in a normal Latin-1 font, but appear as Shavian
characters using a Shavian font which obscures the normal Latin-1 characters,
thus requiring constant font changes to use both real Laitn-1 characters and
Shavian characters in the same document.
>Please tell this ignoramus what Unicode is.
Please see http://www.unicode.org/ or any good computing dictionary.
> I regret that I cannot believe that Esperanto will ever be universally used
Utterly offtopic and irrelevant to this list, which is about the Shavian
alphabet. Please excuse my ignorance if the word 'Shavian' actually is
intended to mean 'complain about other languages without talking about the
Shavian alphabet or anything related to it in any way.' Perhaps it's an
obscure acronym?
> Do forgive my ignorance. Regards Quentin Kyle C/o cutler@i....
You're quite forgiven.
-- brion vibber (brion@p... / vibber@u...)
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| 1100 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:17pm
Subject: Re: Initials, Esperanto et cetera
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On Thursday, June 21, 2001, at 06:06 , cutler wrote:
> I am using
> Windows Millennium and this -apparently - advanced programme produces
> your
> Unicode as a set of squares. Please tell this ignoramus what Unicode is.
>
I will try not to get to technical in describing Unicode, but if you
really want to know what it is you might choose to visit
http://www.unicode.org and find out almost all you will ever need to
know about it.
Unicode is a definition of how to store characters for use by a
computer. The reason Unicode was invented is because currently there
are many conflicting standards of how one should store characters. For
example, if someone in Japan were to create a computer text file and
send it to someone in Germany, the German person may have a hard time
trying to determine what the text file contains - and not because of a
language barrier. The problem stems from the fact that it is most
likely that the Japanese user and the German user each use a different
standard for saving computer text. Unicode solves the standards problem
by defining a standard that can handle all characters on the planet.
This may not interest many people, but for people who are interested in
creating documents that contain many languages or character sets, this
is very important because Unicode ensures people in all countries can
read the text (barring language barriers) as long as they have Unicode
reading capability.
The reason Unicode is important to Shavian is because with Unicode we
can create texts that have both Shavian and Roman characters in it and
not have to worry about tricks used to present the data. In fact, we
can put Shavian and Russian and Thai all in the same document and it is
readable.
As for Windows Millenium, I can only say that I have been profoundly
disappointed in the support for Unicode that I have seen on the Windows
platform. I have confirmation from Netscape that 4.7 of their mail
application does not support Unicode. I have found that most editors
are not Unicode aware. I have done my best to help the Shavian
community be able to make use of Unicode since that is the way we should
be communicating in Shavian (in my opinion). However, the only Windows
I have is Windows NT and I do not know what other versions of Windows
require to be able to type Unicode.
> I regret that I cannot believe that Esperanto will ever be universally
> used
> as Dr Ludovic Zamenhof, its ingenious inventor, imagined it could.
> Esperanto
> is an artificial language. Although it is based on word roots common
> to
> all major European tongues and despite the sound basic theory for the
> need
> for an international means of communication, Esperanto, like Volapük
> before
> it, failed because it is an artificial language. Only enthusiasts who
> go
> out of their way to make a special study of it, use it. Hope for its
> survival has endured since 1887, but it becomes increasingly apparent
> that
> even as an auxiliary language, an artificial language has even less
> chance
> than Erse, Provencal, Koisan, Basque, Pedi, Armorican or Cymric of
> continuing its existence.
I hate to diverge but comments: there are 32 times as many Esperanto
speakers as there are Icelandic speakers in the world. There are many
thriving Esperanto classes in schools throughout the world. The most
likely reason besides some economics for Esperanto's failure to gain
further acceptance was people associated it with a cult aspect when
Esperantists started preaching about social reform a little after
Esperanto was introduced. By the way, I know of many people from
countries like Korea and China that learn Esperanto because it is easier
to learn than English and they want to be able to talk to people from
Europe and the Americas.
> English is not an artificial language and reforms, which aid the
> teaching of
> it - like the unambiguous Shavian Alphabet- should enhance its
> usefulness
> if, like Esperanto, it is not to become the province of those who use
> it as
> a game. I believe that, if used as teaching tool to second language
> learners
> and children, it could be of use to the millions OBLIGED to use English
> if
> they are to advance themselves in the world of which English has become
> the
> lingua franca.
I love the fact that there will be no more "spelling bees" if we use
Shavian. I am very good at spelling, but I hate to see people waste
their time with it when minds can be put to so much better use.
I am actually interested in publishing material in a manner like
Androcles and the Lion was published. I envision being able to provide
documents in Unicode that contain both Shavian and Roman characters to
help people learn Unicode. If anyone is interested or has any leads on
ways to get things published cheaply please contact me.
--
Scott Harrison
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| 1101 |
From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:16am
Subject: Re: an anivxsDI lMmz
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Paige -
Thanks so much for taking such care perusing my nascent efforts
in Shavian.
While I didn't consciously set out to "accurately depict my
accent" , I was, I thought, trying to write English "az SI iz spOkd." But I guess
we give ourselves away.
If I was 15 years younger, I would take up Quikscript too. As it
is, the Shavian symbols are quite enough to master. And
what I was really wondering was if the "old
timers" in this group had experienced an increase in their
writing speed - the way it was so optomistically predicted in the
Androcles preface.
I know I have a long way to go before speed becomes even a
possibility.
Your confusion has caused me some confusion too. If I
wanted to write "hus" (rhyming with bus) wouldn't I
use u? I do
confess I went with the Androcles vowel, which may be a little
hi-faluting for an American. Perhaps A would have been a more apple-pie choice,
(Although I did err is writing
s instead of z.)
I did deliberate on occur - and it's definitely not with
and O. Merriam
Webster's Third International concurs, and says the o is like
the a's in banana. True, if you were going to say
"occur" as a singular stentorian pronouncement, you might
grandly say O-kx, with equal
stress on both syllables, but in the context of a sentence, the
vowel sound is really almost tossed off to get on with the second
syllable and the O
becomes o or maybe even as
negligible as e.
I applied the same judgement to the word conference,
which most people do pronounce
konfrens, which didn't seem to cause you any problem (and that
is the second pronunciation in my Webster's.)
Mind you, I think there are limits - I wouldn't write lFbXI for lFbrXI, though many people say it that way. People
I don't admire.
As to the word old - I
just goofed. It's definitely
Old.
While I've got your atttention, let me ask how an American like
you distinguishes R and D. When I try to distinguish
the sound in the key word "ARRay" it just sounds like a
quick dog growl - almost a sneeze. At best it sounds just like
"ARE" R, but just
unaccented, sloughed off. Does this really qualify it as a
unique phoneme? How do you think of it?
There seems to be an ongoing debate in the group about the
"need for a dictionary," and I'm too new at this to come
down on one side or the other. But two things do seem clear:
all our differences/ seem to boil down to a few vowels which are only
subtly unique and still within the "ball park." We
still know what is being communicated, for the most part, and we
don't come up with words that sound like they were being pronounced
by a Hottentot or Inspector Clouseau (sp?).
As our Tin Pan Alley so beautifully phrased it:
" V sE IHx n F sE
FHx."
Secondly, it seems in these days of databases, a computerized
dictionary that included all the variant spellings of a word (sort of
"word clusters") would not be a difficult thing to
produce. It wouldn't be like Webster's listings:
"THE way to spell the word, followed by variant
spellings, followed by dialectical variations, followed by common,
low-class mis-spellings, etc....." It would be a
democratic list, no spelling better than another - room for all (or
most all).
- Bob
Bob:
You've expressed some interesting ideas about marketing Shavian.
Regarding the point that business men
might like to use Shavian: As other people have stated here
recently, Quikscript really works better aor handwriting as a form of
shorthand than Shavian. It is much more cursive than Shavian --
the letters naturally join with each other so one can write faster as
you do not have all the pen lifts you get in Shavian.
I used Quikscript in law school 15 years ago to take notes when the
professors started talking too fast. Once I loaned my notes to
a student who had missed a class, without considering that about a
third of them were in Quikscript. The next day she gave them
back with a comment along the lines of, "Thanks, but they
didn't help me much. What is this anyway?" I
explained it, but she showed no curiousity about learning it
herself.
You live in New York. I grew up in southern Indiana near
Kentucky. My accent is southern/midwestern. I had trouble
reading your post due to some of the differences I note below.
My question is was this intentional on your part and an accurate
depiction of your accent?
I noticed that you seemed to
consistently use "a"
where I would have used
"A." This makes for some strange words.
For example, what I could only spell in Roman as "fud" for
"fad" or "hus" for "has." The
word "occurred" which I would start with "a" or possibly "O" you start with the
vowel sound in "hot," namely: "o". Another example of the same
usage: the word "old", which I pronounce with a long
"o", you spelled not with
"O" but with
"o."
Since my usage of Mr. Reed's alphabets has been primarily
limited to myself and a few letters years ago to penpals, I am
curious whether these differences indicate more of a need for
standardized spelling than I thought would be necessary.
Paige Gabhart
At 04:21 PM 6/14/2001 -0400, you wrote:
an anivxsDI
lMmz
haz it okxd t
aniwun Hat nekst jC mRks H 40T anivxsDI of dC old
/andrOklIz?
fPtI! Just Hink v it! H /SEvWn /Alfabet, bPn in H daz of H kOld wR n
hot led tFp, n nQ stil alFv in H EJ v glObalizESun, diJitFzd karaktxs
n desktop publiSiN.
jet it sIms, in Yl HOz 40 jCs, nOwun haz fQnd a wE to distribMt,
popVlDFz, - dX /F sE it alQd? - mRket His treZur.
/F nO Hat wI
/amxikans R alwEs akVzd v trFiN t txn evriHiN into munI, but fP fOx
dekEds "fET and gUd wxks" has not ben inuf to put /SEvWn
bifP H Jenxal publik. Aftx almOst hAf a sencxi, His ekselent FdW stil
lANwiSes in H hAndz v liNwists, dilatantz n eksentriks. (/F
inklud mFself in HX sumwX).
sO hM iz QD mRket? /fP stRtxz, hQ abQt "/SEvCn: ekzekVtiv
SPthand fP H OvD-wxked /c/I/O."
kant V sI H Adz in H /wal /strIt /JPnal?
rFt
30% les!
sE mP!
P
gO ahed, tEk nOts in Hat biznes mItiN
n stil kIp VD HYtz t VDself.
F kant spIk fP H
rest v H planet, but hC in H /V/s/E, biznes tFps - espeSWli upx
mAneJment - R alwEz tEkiN trEniN in sum nV fad - al on H JustifikESun
Hat it wil inkrIs HX blesed "prOduktiviti."
tM krIEt HIz "/SEvWn /seminRs" al wun nIdz iz sum dIsent
tIciN matxWlz (cRts, ovxhedz, wxkbUks, kwizez &) n a hotel
konfrens rMm. v kRs, H AdvxtFziN wUd hav t inklMd tetimOnWls. aniwun
Qt HX kX t rFt wun?
-bob mkbrMm
- Robert McBroom
Manager
Onteora Mountain House
Boiceville NY
845-657-6233
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Yahoo! Website Services- Click Here!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
--
- /bob /mk/brMm
/wUdstak /nV /jDk
"wun simpol
iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
evriwun
atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
- /gPJ /bxnRd
/SY
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| 1102 |
From: Brent Edwards <chipuni@h...>
Date: Sun Jun 24, 2001 5:29am
Subject: Hello from a new Shavian!
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îœ‹îœ îœž ·îœîœ®îœŸ îœžîœ îœ‹îœžîœ,
    ·îœîœ®îœŸ îœžîœ îœ‹îœž; 
îœ“îœ˜îœ îœŠîœ îœŸ îœžîœ îœ‹îœ–îœ‰ îœ–îœ îœƒîœ© 
îœ’îœ îœ‚.  îœžîœ¢îœ îœŽîœ–îœ… îœîœž  
, îœŠîœ£îœ îœ îœŒîœ–îœ îœžîœ îœ” îœ’îœ¡îœ îœ îœ–îœ•îœ€îœžîœ¥îœ îœ–îœ.
îœ,    îœîœžîœ  îœ
îœîœ–   îœîœ–,
îœîœ–îœ‚îœ¯îœ”îœ¨îœ”îœ ('', '', 
''),   îœîœ© îœ. îœŽîœ–îœ îœ–îœ
îœŸîœšîœ îœ£   îœîœ¢îœ€îœ‹
·îœîœ®îœŸ, îœ îœ‚îœ©îœ….
, îœ•îœ îœ îœ“îœ˜îœ îœ£  îœîœ¢îœ•
îœîœ– îœŠîœ îœîœ’îœ îœŸ 
îœ…îœœîœŸîœ‹îœ îœ (''  ''), ('' 
''),  ('îœ', '', ''  ''),
,  ·, ·, 
Â·îœ‡îœ¢îœŸîœ îœ, Â·îœ îœ‰îœ”îœ–îœ† îœîœŸîœ
îœ“îœ˜îœ îœ˜îœŸ 'îœ£îœ‚îœ™îœ‹îœ—îœ•îœ '  
îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ‚îœ˜îœŸ îœîœ¡îœ  
îœîœ– îœîœ•. îœ îœîœŸ  
îœîœ– îœîœ– îœîœ• îœ

îœ, îœ–îœ îœ’îœ›îœ‹ îœŠîœ îœîœ£îœƒ îœ
îœîœ–îœŸîœ îœ îœŸîœ£îœƒ îœ€îœ îœ€îœ” îœ îœ¯îœ
îœ. îœ–îœ îœ‹îœ£îœ îœŸîœšîœ îœ…îœ îœ• îœîœ¥ îœ
îœîœ¤ 
 îœîœž   Â·îœ îœ‰îœ”îœ–îœ†
 îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ•îœ—îœŸîœ îœ€îœ îœ€îœ”
 îœîœ‡.
îœŽîœ¡îœŸîœ‚îœ îœƒîœ© îœžîœ îœ‹îœ–îœ‰!
-- îœ
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| 1103 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...>
Date: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:04pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a new Shavian!
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,
 îœîœ…  :
On Sunday, June 24, 2001, at 06:29 , Brent Edwards wrote:
>
> îœ‹îœ îœž ·îœîœ®îœŸ îœžîœ îœ‹îœžîœ,
>
îœ–îœ îœ–îœ îœ–îœŸîœîœ«îœ—îœîœ– îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ¯ 
îœŸîœšîœ îœ¯îœ ''  'îœžîœ îœ‹îœ«'   
îœ—îœ‚îœ…îœ€îœ—îœ‚îœ îœ–îœ.
>     ·îœîœ®îœŸ îœžîœ îœ‹îœž; 
îœ“îœ˜îœ îœŠîœ îœŸ îœžîœ îœ‹îœ–îœ‰ îœ–îœ îœƒîœ© 
îœ’îœ îœ‚.  îœžîœ¢îœ îœŽîœ–îœ… îœîœž  
>  , îœŠîœ£îœ îœ îœŒîœ–îœ îœžîœ îœ” îœ’îœ¡îœ îœ îœ–îœ•îœ€îœžîœ¥îœ îœ–îœ.
îœ€îœ”îœ îœ îœ¯îœ '' îœîœ— îœ ''  
 'a'  îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ–îœ îœ’îœ£îœ Â·îœ†îœ¡îœîœ®îœŸ
îœžîœ îœ‹îœ«îœ îœ—îœ‚îœ…îœ€îœ—îœ‚
îœ.
>
> îœ,    îœîœžîœ 
îœ îœ‹îœ–îœ…îœîœ–   îœîœ–,
îœîœ–îœ‚îœ¯îœ”îœ¨îœ”îœ ('', '', 
> ''),   îœîœ© îœ. îœŽîœ–îœ îœ–îœ
îœŸîœšîœ îœ£   îœîœ¢îœ€îœ‹
·îœîœ®îœŸ, îœ îœ‚îœ©îœ….
îœŽîœ–îœ îœ–îœ îœ’îœ£îœŸ îœžîœ îœîœ™îœŸ  îœ¤îœŸîœ”îœ îœîœ¢îœ€ ·îœîœ®îœŸ. :-)
>
> , îœ•îœ îœ îœ“îœ˜îœ îœ£ 
îœîœ¢îœ• îœîœ–
îœŠîœ îœîœ’îœ îœŸ  îœ…îœœîœŸîœ‹îœ îœ (''  ''),
(''
>  ''),  ('îœ', '', ''  ''),
 îœ“îœ˜îœ îœîœžîœ£îœŸîœ”  îœîœ«îœ îœîœ¥ (note this spelling how 'too' differs from 'to') 
îœ£îœ îœ‹îœ¥  îœŠîœ—îœ…îœ îœ¢ .
>
> ,  ·, ·,
 Â·îœ‡îœ¢îœŸîœ îœ, Â·îœ îœ‰îœ”îœ–îœ† îœîœŸîœ
îœ“îœ˜îœ îœ˜îœŸ 'îœ£îœ‚îœ™îœ‹îœ—îœ•îœ '  
> îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ‚îœ˜îœŸ îœîœ¡îœ  
îœîœ– îœîœ•. îœ îœîœŸ  
îœîœ– îœîœ– îœîœ• îœ
> îœ, îœ–îœ îœ’îœ›îœ‹ îœŠîœ îœîœ£îœƒ îœ
îœîœ–îœŸîœ îœ îœŸîœ£îœƒ îœ€îœ îœ€îœ” îœ îœ¯îœ
îœ. îœ–îœ îœ‹îœ£îœ îœŸîœšîœ îœ…îœ îœ• îœîœ¥ îœ
îœîœ¤
>  îœîœž  
Â·îœ îœ‰îœ”îœ–îœ†  îœŽîœ˜îœ îœ•îœ—îœŸîœ
îœ€îœ îœ€îœ”  îœîœ‡.
îœ–îœ îœ–îœ îœŠîœ—îœîœ«, îœŠîœ£îœ îœ“îœœ  îœ–îœ îœŽ
. îœ•îœ¡îœŠîœ îœ–îœƒ îœ
  ·îœîœ®îœŸ îœ’îœ îœ’îœ–îœ” 
 îœ.
>
> îœŽîœ¡îœŸîœ‚îœ îœƒîœ© îœžîœ îœ‹îœ–îœ‰!
>
> -- îœ
--
Scott Harrison
|
| Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] |
|
| 1104 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 0:18am
Subject: Re: Hello from a new Shavian!
|
| |
|
We've already established that most of us can't read this. Until someone finds a way, could this encoding not be avoided?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Hello from a new Shavian!
??,
<>bigger><>fontfamily>
?? ??????? ? ?????:
<>fontfamily>
On Sunday, June 24, 2001, at 06:29 , Brent Edwards wrote:
???<>fontfamily> ·?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>,
?? ?? ????????? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? '?' ?? '????' ?? ? ??? ??????? ??.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
·?????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>;
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>.
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily>, ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily>.
???? ?? '?' ?????? ? '?'
?? ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> 'a' ???? ??? ??
??? ·????? ????? ???????.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
????<>fontfamily>, ?<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily>, ??????????<>fontfamily>
('?<>fontfamily>', '?<>fontfamily>',
?<>fontfamily> '?<>fontfamily>'),
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>.
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
???????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ·?????<>fontfamily>,
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>.
??? ?? ??? ????? ? ???? ??? ·?????. :-)<>fontfamily>
<>color>
??????<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???????????<>fontfamily>
??????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
('?<>fontfamily>' ?<>fontfamily>
'?<>fontfamily>'), ('?<>fontfamily>'
?<>fontfamily> '?<>fontfamily>'),
?<>fontfamily> ('?<>fontfamily>',
'?<>fontfamily>', '?<>fontfamily>'
?<>fontfamily> '?<>fontfamily>'),
?
??? ????? ??? ????? ?? <>fontfamily>(note this spelling how
'too' differs from 'to') ??? ?? ? ???? ? ???.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
???<>fontfamily>, ?????<>fontfamily>
·?????<>fontfamily>, ·?????<>fontfamily>,
?<>fontfamily> ·?????<>fontfamily>,
·?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
'???????<>fontfamily>' ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
??????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>.
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>,
??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily>. ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
·?????<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily>.
?? ?? ????, ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ???????. ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ·????? ?? ??? ???? ??.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
?????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>!
-- ?????<>fontfamily>
--
Scott Harrison
<>bigger> |
|
|
| 1105 |
From: Brent Edwards <chipuni@h...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:03am
Subject: A reposting of my message: Hello from a new Shavian! (using no Unicode)
|
| |
dIr /SEvWn rIdrz,
F Am u nM /SEvWn rIdr; F hAv bIn rIdiN it fP u wIk. F rFt His letr nar rM
flEm, but t giv rIl wEz t imprMv it.
fxst, F fFnd sum letrz hRd t distiNwiS in mF rFtiN, pRtikVlRlI ('l', 'E',
n 'Q'), n TX mCP imajz. Hiz iz not u problem in tFpd /SEvWn, v kPs.
sekond, mI C hAz u hRd tFm distiNwiSiN bItwIn H sQndz v ('T' n 'H'), ('w'
n 'U'), n ('y', 'A', 'a' n 'u'),
Hxd, unlFk /frenc, /Jxman, n /cFnIz, /INliS duznt hAv An 'ukademI' in cRj
HAt kAn diktEt speliN P rFtiN sistm. Ivn HO u fOnetik rFtiN sistm mEkz
senz, it wUd bI tuf t konvinz Inuf pIpl t Vz it. it duz not sIm tM bI zO
muc betr Han regVlR /INliS speliN HAt menI pIpl wil switc.
HEnkz fP rIdiN!
-- brent
|
|
| 1106 |
From: cutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 0:58pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a new Shavian!
|
| |
I receive you as a row of question
marks. The Shavian alphabet comes up perfectly on my Windows, so I
imagine you have used some other code. Quentin Kyle c/o cutler@icon.co.za
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 6:29 AM
Subject: [shavian] Hello from a new Shavian!
??? ·????? ?????,
? ?? ? ?? ·????? ????; ? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ? ???. ? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ?????? ??.
????,
? ???? ??? ????? ??? ? ????????? ?? ?? ?????, ?????????? ('?','?', ?
'?'), ? ?? ??? ?????. ??? ?? ??? ? ??????? ?? ???? ·?????, ????.
??????, ?? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????? ? ????? ? ('?' ? '?'),('?' ? '?'), ? ('?', '?', '?' ? '?'),
???,
????? ·?????, ·?????, ? ·?????, ·????? ????? ??? ?? '???????' ?????
??? ??? ?????? ?????? ? ????? ?????. ??? ?? ? ??????? ????? ?????????
????, ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??????? ???? ???? ? ?? ??. ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??
??? ???? ??? ?????? ·????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????.
????? ?? ?????!
-- ????? <>bigger><>bigger><>bigger><>bigger><>bigger><>fontfamily> |
|
|
| 1107 |
From: cutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 0:53pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a new Shavian!
|
| |
|
I wonder if this will return to you in
the form in which I receive it ... a row of question marks.
Quentin Kyle. P.S. Are you able to make it work for Windows
(Millennium) - Shavian comes out perfectly.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Hello from a new Shavian!
??,
<>bigger><>fontfamily>
?? ??????? ? ?????:
<>fontfamily>
On Sunday, June 24, 2001, at 06:29 , Brent Edwards wrote:
???<>fontfamily> ·?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>,
?? ?? ????????? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? '?' ?? '????' ?? ? ??? ??????? ??.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
·?????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>;
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>.
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily>, ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily>.
???? ?? '?' ?????? ? '?'
?? ?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily> 'a' ???? ??? ??
??? ·????? ????? ???????.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
????<>fontfamily>, ?<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ?????????<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily>, ??????????<>fontfamily>
('?<>fontfamily>', '?<>fontfamily>',
?<>fontfamily> '?<>fontfamily>'),
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>.
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
???????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ·?????<>fontfamily>,
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>.
??? ?? ??? ????? ? ???? ??? ·?????. :-)<>fontfamily>
<>color>
??????<>fontfamily>, ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???????????<>fontfamily>
??????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
('?<>fontfamily>' ?<>fontfamily>
'?<>fontfamily>'), ('?<>fontfamily>'
?<>fontfamily> '?<>fontfamily>'),
?<>fontfamily> ('?<>fontfamily>',
'?<>fontfamily>', '?<>fontfamily>'
?<>fontfamily> '?<>fontfamily>'),
?
??? ????? ??? ????? ?? <>fontfamily>(note this spelling how
'too' differs from 'to') ??? ?? ? ???? ? ???.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
???<>fontfamily>, ?????<>fontfamily>
·?????<>fontfamily>, ·?????<>fontfamily>,
?<>fontfamily> ·?????<>fontfamily>,
·?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
'???????<>fontfamily>' ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
??????<>fontfamily> ?<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>.
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>,
??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ???????<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
?<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily>. ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
??<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
·?????<>fontfamily> ??????<>fontfamily>
???<>fontfamily> ????<>fontfamily>
????<>fontfamily> ???<>fontfamily>
?????<>fontfamily>.
?? ?? ????, ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ???????. ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ·????? ?? ??? ???? ??.<>fontfamily>
<>color>
?????<>fontfamily> ??<>fontfamily> ?????<>fontfamily>!
-- ?????<>fontfamily>
--
Scott Harrison
<>bigger> |
|
|
| 1108 |
From: cutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 10:37pm
Subject: Re: an anivxsDI lMmz. Reply to Paige from Quentin Kyle.
|
| |
From Quentin Kyle c/o cutler@icon.co.za to Paige Gabhart
hQ dU V dU? I have read your observations with great interest.
I am new to the Shavian Alphabet and need guidance. For instance, I do not know when to use P or when to use Y; x and D also confuse me; does one write hamper as hampx or as hampD or even as hampa?
Some of your members think Shavian spelling should not be standardized; it would be unusable to me, if it were not. I
am not studying the possibilities of Shaws Alphabet to write fast or
save space, nor am I interested in it as a pastime or game. To me the prime use of Shavian is to teach standard pronunciation to second language learners. I live in a country where there are eleven official languages with only English as its lingua franca. English is mispronounced by 93% of the population. If communication is to be accurate, standard pronunciation is essential. This
means that, if Shavian is to be useful & instead of just a
sophisticated game that allows one the amusement of seeing different
accents from all over the world in print, the spelling must be standardised for purposes of teaching. Even the abbreviations could not be used if one is to accurately show the difference sound of the before a vowel ( T eg) and before a consonant (H hAn).
I
propose using a video or computer programme to show the 48 characters
required for standard English, with the sound they each represent.
(Does anyone have a better idea?) After the learner has mastered the
shape of the character and the sound it represents, he would be
presented with the Shavian character UNDER the words printed in the
traditional English alphabet. This would obviate his having to learn
the thousand odd phonemes that make writing and reading English so
difficult. The student would immediately SEE the variations on themes
such as ough in:
though through thought thorough rough bough dough cough
TO TrU Tyt Tux ruf bQ dO kof
He would know that the last e of epitome is sounded and that of tome, silent, and be unhampered, when reading, by different spellings adding up to the same sounds as in: Height, bite, byte, knight, and know that sleight rhymes with site and sleigh with hay.
Since the universally standardized spelling is that of the Oxford English Dictionary, the OEDs pronunciations are those I shall take as the standard ones.
For my purpose, there would be no point in teaching the Shavian alphabet unless its spelling
is standardized. Poor pronunciation is like bad handwriting; it fails
to get the message across. In this country there are so many diverse
and incorrect pronunciations that a newscaster will say The consumers
were bold , giving the impression of protesting consumers, when he
meant: the consumers were billed. If newsreaders mispronounce, one
may imagine what less well-educated people do to the language.
There
is a further difficulty for the foreigner that is not solved by the
Shavian symbols: how does one indicate where the accent lies? How do you distinguish between pronunciation of frequent as a verb and as an adjective? Ambiguities of English spelling and pronunciation go beyond the alphabet; how would one know that the accent in phoneme is on the first syllable, yet in phonetic, the second? One of your members suggests that we use bold print for the stress. fonIm and fonetic,
frIkwent and frekwent ? /perhaps!
Please cast your ideas through the ether and onto my screen. Your corrections would be most welcome. Quentin.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] an anivxsDI lMmz
Bob:
You've expressed some interesting ideas about marketing Shavian.
Regarding
the point that business men might like to use Shavian: As other
people have stated here recently, Quikscript really works better for
handwriting as a form of shorthand than Shavian. It is much more
cursive than Shavian -- the letters naturally join with each other so
one can write faster as you do not have all the pen lifts you get in
Shavian.
I used Quikscript in law school 15 years ago to take
notes when the professors started talking too fast. Once I loaned
my notes to a student who had missed a class, without considering that
about a third of them were in Quikscript. The next day she gave
them back with a comment along the lines of, "Thanks, but they
didn't help me much. What is this anyway?" I explained it,
but she showed no curiousity about learning it herself.
You live
in New York. I grew up in southern Indiana near
Kentucky. My accent is southern/midwestern. I had trouble
reading your post due to some of the differences I note below. My
question is was this intentional on your part and an accurate depiction
of your accent?
I noticed that you seemed to consistently use "a" where I would have used "A." This
makes for some strange words. For example, what I could
only spell in Roman as "fud" for "fad" or "hus" for "has." The
word "occurred" which I would start with "a" or possibly "O" you start with the vowel sound in "hot," namely: "o". Another example of the same usage: the word "old", which I pronounce with a long "o", you spelled not with "O" but with "o."
Since
my usage of Mr. Reed's alphabets has been primarily limited to myself
and a few letters years ago to penpals, I am curious whether these
differences indicate more of a need for standardized spelling than I
thought would be necessary.
Paige Gabhart
At 04:21 PM 6/14/2001 -0400, you wrote:
an anivxsDI lMmz
haz it okxd t aniwun Hat nekst jC mRks H 40T anivxsDI of dC old /andrOklIz?
fPtI!
Just Hink v it! H /SEvWn /Alfabet, bPn in H daz of H kOld wR n hot led
tFp, n nQ stil alFv in H EJ v glObalizESun, diJitFzd karaktxs n desktop
publiSiN.
jet it sIms, in Yl HOz 40 jCs, nOwun haz fQnd a wE to distribMt, popVlDFz, - dX /F sE it alQd? - mRket His treZur.
/F
nO Hat wI /amxikans R alwEs akVzd v trFiN t txn evriHiN into munI, but
fP fOx dekEds "fET and gUd wxks" has not ben inuf to put /SEvWn bifP H
Jenxal publik. Aftx almOst hAf a sencxi, His ekselent FdW stil lANwiSes
in H hAndz v liNwists, dilatantz n eksentriks. (/F inklud mFself
in HX sumwX).
sO hM iz QD mRket? /fP stRtxz, hQ abQt "/SEvCn: ekzekVtiv SPthand fP H OvD-wxked /c/I/O."
kant V sI H Adz in H /wal /strIt /JPnal?
rFt 30% les!
sE mP!
P
gO ahed, tEk nOts in Hat biznes mItiN
n stil kIp VD HYtz t VDself.
F
kant spIk fP H rest v H planet, but hC in H /V/s/E, biznes tFps -
espeSWli upx mAneJment - R alwEz tEkiN trEniN in sum nV fad - al on H
JustifikESun Hat it wil inkrIs HX blesed "prOduktiviti."
tM
krIEt HIz "/SEvWn /seminRs" al wun nIdz iz sum dIsent tIciN matxWlz
(cRts, ovxhedz, wxkbUks, kwizez &) n a hotel konfrens rMm. v kRs, H
AdvxtFziN wUd hav t inklMd tetimOnWls. aniwun Qt HX kX t rFt
wun?
-bob mkbrMm
- Robert McBroom
Manager
Onteora Mountain House
Boiceville NY
845-657-6233
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| 1109 |
From: cutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 10:47pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a new Shavian!
|
| |
Just a row of ???????comes to me
through the ether from you. Sorry. I'm sure they contain a
profound message, so could you send them another way? Roman does
admirably and so does Shavian on my Windows Millenium programme.
Quentin Kyle c/o cutler@icon.co.za
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 6:29 AM
Subject: [shavian] Hello from a new Shavian!
??? ·????? ?????,
? ?? ? ?? ·????? ????; ? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ? ???. ? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ????, ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ?????? ??.
????,
? ???? ??? ????? ??? ? ????????? ?? ?? ?????, ?????????? ('?','?', ?
'?'), ? ?? ??? ?????. ??? ?? ??? ? ??????? ?? ???? ·?????, ????.
??????, ?? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????? ? ????? ? ('?' ? '?'),('?' ? '?'), ? ('?', '?', '?' ? '?'),
???,
????? ·?????, ·?????, ? ·?????, ·????? ????? ??? ?? '???????' ?????
??? ??? ?????? ?????? ? ????? ?????. ??? ?? ? ??????? ????? ?????????
????, ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??????? ???? ???? ? ?? ??. ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??
??? ???? ??? ?????? ·????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????.
????? ?? ?????!
-- ????? <>bigger><>bigger><>bigger><>bigger><>bigger><>fontfamily> |
|
|
| 1110 |
From: Simon Barne <sosostris@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 2:28am
Subject: Christmas and birthday cards
|
| |
As there are only six months left till Christmas, it is high time you
were thinking of choosing suitable cards for your
alternative-alphabet-obsessed chums.
I have made some Shavian cards for my website. They are not terribly
good, but they are free to copy, print, send, edit, claim as your own
work, sell, burn, etc. More cards will be added when I feel less
lethargic.
The URL is:
http://www.simonbarne.com/shavian/cards.html
Suggestions and comments welcome.
Simon Barne
|
|
| 1111 |
From: Brent Edwards <chipuni@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:09pm
Subject: Continuing the conversations
|
| |
dIr /SEvWn rIdxz,
fxst, a hVj HEnk V t /skot /hXison fP hiz help wiT mF /SEvWn rFtiN! I
wil sepREt mF 'a's from mF 'uh's, n Vz 'x' insted v 'r's At H end v wxdz.
sekond, /kwentin, /INgliS iz not spOken H sEm wE arQnd H wxld. wat V
nId iz sumwun wiH jP kPekt prOnunsiESun t translEt from /INliS t /SEvWn.
(anE edVkEted /sQT /Afrikan wil do.)
As H wxld grOz smalx, wI wil stAndRdFz on a set v prOnunsIESunz. (F
am betiN on 'bIb /INliS'.) wI R not HX jet.
Txd, /SFmon, H kRdz R luvlI! wen F rIinstal /korel /fOtOSop, F wil bI
krIEtiN sFnz, tM.
jPz,
/brent
|
|
| 1112 |
From: <warriorprincess@g...>
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 6:28pm
Subject: An old fan of Shavian with a question
|
| |
Hello all, from a Shavian across the pond!
I learned about shavian from my senior english book in high school
and I have since been fascinated by writing systems. (linguistics is
my hobby) I an amazed that so many people recognize the usefulness of
a system that works by phonetics rather than traditional spellings.
After all, who cares if you spell grey or gray, colour or color,
turck or lorrie (okay maybe not that last one). Anyway, my
question/observation is this: Shavian is missing one phenome to make
it american as well as english--the breathless "wh" versus the
breathed "w". This might have already been rehashed, but I'm willing
to hash it again ;)
Love and happy writing,
Star
ps. is there anyone who has a key to practicing handwritten Shavian?
All hail George Bernard Shaw!
|
|
| 1113 |
From: <warriorprincess@g...>
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Standard Spelling
|
| |
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't shavian an outcry against the
silly standard spellings in the modern english language? Besides the
difference in pronunciation of Rhotic and non Rhotic accents, someone
in Brooklyn, NY might not agree with the way someone from
Massachusets "spells" something in shavian, anymore than someone from
Brittain would agree with someone from Ireland, not to mention the
slight variations on dialect within an area. Shavian is based on
Standard english, but night and knight are "spelled" the same because
they are pronounced the same. IMHO, making a standard spelling system
would go against what Shaw was trying to do, besides, who's accent
would you use? London or Liverpool? Dublin or Dallas? If you don't
like it, stick to standard English spelling.
Love and soapboxes
Star
All Hail George Bernard Shaw
--- In shavian@y..., "cutler" <cutler@i...> wrote:
>
> PRONUNCIATION versus GRAMMAR
> Paige Gabhart writes: "I believe the idea that Shavian spells
everything one way is clearly wrong and not necessary for good
communication."
>
> In my country where there are eleven official languages, standard
PRONUNCIATION is essential for communication. English is the lingua
franca of the courts, parliament, schools and universities most of
the population are trying to deal with a language that is not their
own. English taught by non-English teachers leads to distortion of
the language, which is becoming unrecognisable in some instances.
Even newscasters can be unintelligible. We hear that "a bed flew
into a Boeing", "The President unvealed a plague" and other
misleading information, the meaning of which must be guessed at.
Bad grammar is far less misleading.
>
> As I aim at using Shavian for teaching by writing it under the
word, it is imperative that a standard pronunciation be agreed on for
the purpose. Since all traditional alphabet printing adheres to
traditional English spelling as used in the Oxford English
Dictionary, it is the pronunciation guide of the OED that I intend to
use. Swerving from this can only lead to confusion, as there are so
many accents and variations around. Robert Burns might like all
spelling to be like his own:
>
> O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
>
> To see oursels as others see us!
>
> It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
>
> And foolish notion.
>
> If one is using the Shavian symbols as a game played as a hobby,
it is interesting and amusing to "hear" the different accents of
Australia, the Deep South of America and 'Oxford' English, but these
variations have to be for the pleasure of advanced students who have
mastered a standard pronunciation. L'Académie Française was
formed by
the Cardinal de Richelieu in 1635 to allay the chaos caused by
erratic spelling and pronunciation that made French almost
unintelligible to the French. Standardisation of spelling et cetera
saved the country millions. The whole purpose of Shavian is to
obviate ambiguity. The problem of ambiguity would fall away if each
sound were to have a symbol of its own. The sound of the symbol would
be inflexible - it would be foolish to re-create a possibility of
ambiguity in spelling.
>
> I believe that Shavian should standardise spelling to suit the
pronunciation of the English language most easily understood by those
who do not have English as their first language and have difficulty
in grasping the meaning of it.
>
> Remember that people never use words they do not know how to
pronounce and so vocabulary dwindles and common expletives are used
instead of meaningful words. Whole film scripts are made up of oaths
and obscenities to characterise people unable better to express
themselves.
>
> May I have your comments and transliteration to the Shavian
alphabet of the two sentences:
>
> A bird flew into a Boeing, & The President unveiled a plaque.
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| 1114 |
From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 0:09pm
Subject: Re: An old fan of Shavian with a question
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Star writes:
>>Anyway, my question/observation is this: Shavian is missing one phenome
[phoneme] to make it american as well as english--the breathless "wh" versus
the breathed "w". This might have already been rehashed, but I'm willing to
hash it again ;) <<
Indeed, this problem has been discussed before. The w/wh distinction is an
archaic feature in American English - I have it, but at 62 I'm archaic - my
parents were from Oregon - probably inherited from Scots English. Its use in
southern England is distinctly "non-U". In the Shaw Alphabet, I just write
the two component letters. - A more serious problem, discussed at great
length on this list in the past, is the fact that British English has one
more vowel than I do, and I'd have to look a word up in a British-English
dictionary (if I had one) to tell me to write "daunce" and "lawf" rather than
"dance" and "laff". The rest of the English speaking world, for whom British
Received Pronunciation is normative, doesn't understand the problem we North
Americans have here, where we respect George V's pronunciation quite as much
as we did George III's tea.
Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee
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