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1145

From: em pee <mitch@e...>
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: SUMMARY re: (beginner) How to transcribe -LY: [i]f versus [ea]t
 
Thanks, Hugh.

A better search found message 765 by Jon Zuck, who quoted Read's
Quickscript manual regarding conventions. The short answer seems to
be unstressed vowels may sometimes have multiple transcriptions, so
a common convention is needed. GBS apparently chose 'i' over 'I',
maybe to save the jaggy stroke when writing?

Regarding my question of -ly, the same sound as in "city", the
specific answer is:

unstressed -y,-ey, -ie, -e, -ily, -ity (write IF)
hApili wiT mani in H citi

lEtx,
-Mitch
1146

From: Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2001 8:26pm
Subject: Re: (beginner) How to transcribe -LY: [i]f versus [ea]t
 
I expect [ea]t too, but the [i]f is used all the time, and I don't think
it's that incorrect. The Quikscript manual also says you should use [i]f
for -y suffixes, if I'm not mistaken.

An introduction to Quikscript (the 'evolution' of Shavian) is in the files
section of the Shavian yahoo-group.

Ewout
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: em pee <mitch@e...>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: donderdag 6 september 2001 21:20
Onderwerp: [shavian] (beginner) How to transcribe -LY: [i]f versus [ea]t


>Greetings,
>
>The prologue of Androcles and the Lion, in the first sentence and many
>others, transcribes words like "faintly" with an -ly suffix using [l]oll
[i]f instead of [l]oll [ea]t as I would expect.
>
>I think most speakers would pronounce -ly with a long e sound as in eat,
>not [i]f which I would also pronounce as vowel in "bit". Yet the [i]f
>character is used. Does [i]f have two sounds?
1147

From: <tupper@p...>
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 4:29am
Subject: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
Is there a flag or icon that represents Shavian? I am producing
an educational product and am planning on including a bit of
Shavian text and would like a flag to go with the text.

Possibilities that I can think of include:

- A Dublin flag (birthplace of Shaw)
- A Hertfordshire flag (where Shaw died, which is connected with
the birth of Shavian, but there doesn't seem to be such a flag...)
- A flag containing icons from Androcles and the Lion
- Something connected with Kingsley Read

Ideally it would be simple and attractive.

I would think that someone with more than my little knowledge of
Shaw, Read, and / or Shavian should be able to give better
ideas.
1148

From: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: New file uploaded to shavian
 
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.

File : /images/logo-burger_king-lux_lucre.gif
Uploaded by : luxlucre@h...
Description : New look for the Whooper wrapper

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/images/logo-burger_king-lux_lucre.gif

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

luxlucre@h...
1149

From: <spizzgat@y...>
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:28pm
Subject: Has anyone else noticed this?
 
In the Unicode proposal for Shavian at http://www.unicode.org/pending/
shavian/shavian.html , the letter NUN is written as RUN, not to
mention the IPA renditions of the letters are all messed up.
1150

From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2001 6:20pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
Your request for a Shavian flag has come at a good time - we Americans could use some diversion from the grizzly events of the last week, events which occurred just two hours south.

My humble submission is attached.  While it may not prove capable of embroidery, it should be, at least, web-worthy.

We Americans seem to love 3-letter acronyms (NBC, CNN, IBM, ATT etc.) so I thought a three-letter tribute to our founding Genius might be appropriate. After all, he is one of the few men of modern times whose initials are as famous as his name, and his name itself has spawned its own adjective.

Some may find the color scheme a little to English for the Irish Shaw, but I don't think anybody really has a copyright on red, white, and blue.


Is there a flag or icon that represents Shavian? I am producing
an educational product and am planning on including a bit of
Shavian text and would like a flag to go with the text.

Possibilities that I can think of include:

- A Dublin flag (birthplace of Shaw)
- A Hertfordshire flag (where Shaw died, which is connected with
the birth of Shavian, but there doesn't seem to be such a flag...)
- A flag containing icons from Androcles and the Lion
- Something connected with Kingsley Read

Ideally it would be simple and attractive.

I would think that someone with more than my little knowledge of
Shaw, Read, and / or Shavian should be able to give better
ideas.
Attachment: (image/jpeg) Shavian_flag.72.jpg [not stored]
--
- /bob /mk/brMm
  /wUdstak  /nV /jDk

"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
 evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
                   - /gPJ /bxnRd /SY
1151

From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2001 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
On 16 Sep 01, at 13:20, Robert McBroom wrote:

> We Americans seem to love 3-letter acronyms (NBC, CNN, IBM, ATT etc.)
> so I thought a three-letter tribute to our founding Genius might be
> appropriate. After all, he is one of the few men of modern times
> whose initials are as famous as his name, and his name itself has
> spawned its own adjective.

Um, I would suggest either G-B-S or (preferably) J-B-SH. After all,
it's "/JPJ" and not "/george" :)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
1152

From: John Cowan <cowan@c...>
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:21am
Subject: Re: Has anyone else noticed this?
 
spizzgat@y... scripsit:

> In the Unicode proposal for Shavian at http://www.unicode.org/pending
> shavian/shavian.html , the letter NUN is written as RUN,

Mea culpa: I made that error when typing out the Conscript Unicode version,
from which the Unicode proposal was cloned. I will make sure it is fixed.

> not to
> mention the IPA renditions of the letters are all messed up.

They are encoded in Unicode, and look fine if you use a Unicode
font such as Bitstream Cyberbit or Code 2000.

--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@c...
Please leave your values | Check your assumptions. In fact,
at the front desk. | check your assumptions at the door.
--sign in Paris hotel | --Miles Vorkosigan
1153

From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2001 10:41am
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
I like the flag - I'd use it - however the first letter should really be 'J', as in 'JPJ'.
 
Hugh B
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Shavian Flag / Icon

Your request for a Shavian flag has come at a good time - we Americans could use some diversion from the grizzly events of the last week, events which occurred just two hours south.

My humble submission is attached.  While it may not prove capable of embroidery, it should be, at least, web-worthy.

We Americans seem to love 3-letter acronyms (NBC, CNN, IBM, ATT etc.) so I thought a three-letter tribute to our founding Genius might be appropriate. After all, he is one of the few men of modern times whose initials are as famous as his name, and his name itself has spawned its own adjective.

Some may find the color scheme a little to English for the Irish Shaw, but I don't think anybody really has a copyright on red, white, and blue.


Is there a flag or icon that represents Shavian? I am producing
an educational product and am planning on including a bit of
Shavian text and would like a flag to go with the text.

Possibilities that I can think of include:

- A Dublin flag (birthplace of Shaw)
- A Hertfordshire flag (where Shaw died, which is connected with
the birth of Shavian, but there doesn't seem to be such a flag...)
- A flag containing icons from Androcles and the Lion
- Something connected with Kingsley Read

Ideally it would be simple and attractive.

I would think that someone with more than my little knowledge of
Shaw, Read, and / or Shavian should be able to give better
ideas.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--
- /bob /mk/brMm
  /wUdstak  /nV /jDk

"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
 evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
                   - /gPJ /bxnRd /SY
1154

From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2001 4:20pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
You guys are, of course, absolutely correct.

I noticed the same thing - about 5 minutes after I pushed the "send" button. But by that time there was no place to hide.  I guess 6 months of study has not gotten me completely free from the tyranny of "ay...bee...cee..."

Ironically, my first effort was spelled "gbs" but I caught my error and smugly corrected it to "gbS".  Oh well.

I have attached the corrected version.

And one afterthought:  Could the instigator of this little contest really have meant "logo" when he wrote "flag"?  These days, there is a lot more use for a decent logo than a flag,  unless he's going to start a Shavian Scout Troop.
Attachment: (image/jpeg) Shavian_flag_2.72.jpg [not stored]
--
- Robert McBroom
Manager
Onteora Mountain House
Boiceville NY
845-657-6233
1155

From: richardcutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2001 8:32pm
Subject: Logo/Flag for G.B.S.
 
 Dear Bob,

George Bernard Shaw was known as G.B.S. It was, in his day, always written in capitals with the full stops (periods) between the letters and pronounced gee bee ess to which he was usually referred.  I fail to see the logic of using letters, for your logo/flag, of the phonetic alphabet that would probably spell the word something like

 gI bI S. As it is written in phonetic script without punctuation, I, an ignorant beginner, would imagine it to be a word, to be pronounced something like guhbuhes and have no clue of what it signified.  In short, I think the Shavian alphabet quite unsuitable for indicating initials. Full stops between the letters are, surely essential, if you wish to indicate that they are not meant to be combined, but read separately. Should not the capital letter symbol, too, be used? -  /g./b./s.

Alas, I cannot understand Hugh Birkenshaws comment :- I like the flag - I'd use it - however the first letter should really be 'J', as in 'JPJ'.  Although I do understand the use of the J sign J for George, I cannot see it working as an initial for G. The names of the letters of the English Alphabet were one of the things that G.B.S. fought against because they bear almost no relationship to the way the letter is sounded; B called bee usually sounded as buh P as puh; G is guh in Gill and juh in Jill. 

 Should one not, under the circumstances use the word SHAW on your logo/flag?  The full name, George Bernard Shaw might be possible, also, as the layman will take it to be an Arabic script, anyway, so we might as well have something that a student of Shavian can understand, nest pas?

 Shaw, himself, preferred to be known as Bernard Shaw as he hated the name George. He liked G.B.S., however.

May I ask whether there is any significance in the colours you have chosen? 

Personally, I do think that a logo should be either deep-etched or, in this case, in a circle, not a rectangle, to give the feeling of universality  which is, I think the ultimate aim of the Shavian alphabet. 

Forgive my presumption in pointing out these things, about which I know little, but you have invited comment.

Regards, Quentin Kyle. (I share an e-mail address, which is cutler@icon.co.za.

1156

From: Marina Plota <marina_plota@y...>
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: Subj
 
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1157

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2001 5:53am
Subject: Re: Fonts?
 
Robert

There are ten fonts available for downloading in the file section on
the discussion group server
http://groups.yahoo.com/grop/shavian/files

Some are not described well enough to determine which is which.
I don't know if Discoll's ShawSans2 is there or not.

Steve

--- In shavian@y..., "Robert S. Reeser" <reeser@c...> wrote:
> What fonts are preferred for posting in Shavian? (I like Philip
Driscoll's
> ShawSans2; is that o.k.?)
1158

From: <jlweaver@l...>
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2001 2:16pm
Subject: Re: Fonts?
 
How would one go about "posting in Shavian"? Is there a way of
representing it (presumably with escape characters) in Roman
letters? I downloaded Ghoti Fingers. Would that be of help?

Thanks,
Jim Weaver

--- In shavian@y..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> Robert
>
> There are ten fonts available for downloading in the file section
on
> the discussion group server
> http://groups.yahoo.com/grop/shavian/files
>
> Some are not described well enough to determine which is which.
> I don't know if Discoll's ShawSans2 is there or not.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In shavian@y..., "Robert S. Reeser" <reeser@c...> wrote:
> > What fonts are preferred for posting in Shavian? (I like Philip
> Driscoll's
> > ShawSans2; is that o.k.?)
1159

From: Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2001 2:30pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
How about a simple flag / logo with just     Sy  on it?
Ewout
1160

From: Mitchell Perilstein <mitch@e...>
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: txt2shaw
 
Now available is a development release of txt2shaw: a very simple Roman text
to Keyboard Shavian text filter. The CMU phoneme dictionary is used to map
English words to phonemes, then phonemes are mapped to Shaw characters:

unQnsiN u divelupmunt rIlIs v txt2shaw: u verI simpul /rOmun
tekst t /kIbYrd [Shavian] tekst filtx. H [CMU] [phoneme]
dikSunerI iz jMzd t mAp /iNgliS wxdz t [phonemes], Hen
[phonemes] yr mApt t /SY kAriktxz.

This is a work in progress, so non-developers might wait until it's
more solid.

To download, vist: http://www.enetis.net/~mitch/shavian.html

The abbreviations suggested in the end matter of "Androcles and the Lion"
are fully implemented, with the default being the standard four: the, and,
of, to. More aggressive abbreviation levels are also provided. Instead of
following the spelling conventions adopted by some of the Shavian community,
the straightforward phonemic dictionary spelling is used. For example, words
such as "city" will map to "sitI" instead of the "siti" as appears in
Androcles.

It is written in Perl and should run without change on any Unix or Linux
system, and with a little work on others for which Perl is available.
In addition to Perl, the GNU gzip program is required. See www.perl.com
and www.gnu.org for these.

txt2shaw is free software under the GNU General Public License.

See also Rosetta by Andy Callaway:
http://www.geocities.com/andy_callaway/Rosetta.html

--
Mitchell Perilstein
mitch@e...
www.enetis.net/~mitch
+1 (605) 574-2367
1161

From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2001 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
I tried to oblige Mr. Stam, but, in the end, I couldn't resist a little iconography. 

PS: Could Mr. Stam oblige me and send his name spelled out in Shavian?







How about a simple flag / logo with just     Sy  on it?
Ewout

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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
  /wUdstak  /nV /jDk

"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
 evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
                   - /gPJ /bxnRd /SY
Attachment: (image/jpeg) Shaw_flag3.72.jpg [not stored]
1162

From: <teraiten@y...>
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2001 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Flag / Icon
 
--- In shavian@y..., Robert McBroom <info@o...> wrote:
> I tried to oblige Mr. Stam, but, in the end, I couldn't resist a
> little iconography.
>


Interesting. This way it looks a little more personal. A clear
connection between the script and the person behind it.

> PS: Could Mr. Stam oblige me and send his name spelled out in
Shavian?

stym

(pronounce the 'y' a little shorter in duration).

My first name (Ewout) can be spelled in Shaw too:

EvQt or EwQt

(The Dutch 'w' is a little in between those too. I consider both as
correct.)


(I'm sorry I couldn't get the fonts right, it's a web-based text only
system I'm using here, I'm not at home right now)

Yours,

Ewout
1163

From: Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sat Oct 6, 2001 0:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fonts?
 
(late reply, sorry, but I saw it still lying around in my inbox.

Anyway, there are special fonts available, with the keys mapped
out to the normal keyboard. For some characters, you simply need
to press shift first.

I created a few stickers with shavian characters on them and pasted them on
my
keyboard (especially the vowels). This really eases the learning process.

Ewout.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: jlweaver@l... <jlweaver@l...>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: zondag 23 september 2001 15:44
Onderwerp: [shavian] Re: Fonts?


>How would one go about "posting in Shavian"? Is there a way of
>representing it (presumably with escape characters) in Roman
>letters? I downloaded Ghoti Fingers. Would that be of help?
>
>Thanks,
>Jim Weaver
>
>--- In shavian@y..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
>> Robert
>>
>> There are ten fonts available for downloading in the file section
>on
>> the discussion group server
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/grop/shavian/files
>>
>> Some are not described well enough to determine which is which.
>> I don't know if Discoll's ShawSans2 is there or not.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> --- In shavian@y..., "Robert S. Reeser" <reeser@c...> wrote:
>> > What fonts are preferred for posting in Shavian? (I like Philip
>> Driscoll's
>> > ShawSans2; is that o.k.?)
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
1164

From: em pee <mitch@e...>
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2001 9:15am
Subject: Phoneme Frequencies
 
Hi all,

For those interested in alphabet design, here are the 20 most
common phonemes, pairs, and triples of phonemes as they occur
in individual English words. This is from a quick scan of the
CMU dictionary (write me for details).

There could be two uses for this. First, the more commonly
used phonemes could be written with easier strokes in your
favorite phonetic alphabet. For example, L is the fourth most
common phoneme, but in Quickscript has two curves, so is not as
efficient as other phonemes less used. (Perhaps that's because
of letter joining concerns in QS?) In the first Shaw
alphabet, it's only one curve.

Second, compression. We can already abbreviate common words
with consonants, but perhaps a very few new symbols could be
used to represent common paired or tripled phoneme sequences
within words (as opposed to joining two existing symbols).

The CMU dict and phoneme definitions are here: http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict

I hope someone will find this useful!


freq phones freq diphones freq triphones
---- ------ ---- -------- ---- ---------
76691 AH 21739 AH-N 3521 M-AH-N
57683 N 12026 AH-L 2602 SH-AH-N
47502 S 9090 S-T 2198 AH-N-Z
46844 L 7129 IH-NG 2076 AH-N-T
45599 T 6955 M-AH 1977 S-AH-N
43619 R 6748 R-AH 1749 T-AH-N
40371 K 6637 T-AH 1537 AH-S-T
36550 IH 6498 AH-S 1527 K-AH-N
33008 IY 6216 L-AH 1468 AH-N-D
30450 D 6050 AA-R 1449 B-AH-L
27944 M 5991 R-IY 1377 L-AH-N
27606 ER 5927 S-AH 1366 K-AH-L
26627 EH 5771 AO-R 1350 EY-SH-AH
25735 Z 5708 N-T 1343 AH-N-S
23504 AA 5704 K-AH 1338 T-AH-D
20549 AE 5667 IH-N 1315 AE-N-D
19904 B 5387 L-IY 1271 S-T-R
18540 P 5230 AE-N 1182 T-IH-NG
17971 OW 5206 N-AH 1131 L-IH-NG
12936 F 5155 IH-K 1129 S-T-AH
12909 G 5096 N-D 1104 R-AH-N
1165

From: Lee Hickenlooper <leehickenlooper@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2001 3:55pm
Subject: Re: Phoneme Frequencies
 
Hi Mitch,

    It look's like we both spent time on this research on the CMU pronunciation dictionary. My conclusion was the data I compiled in an effort to find the most frequent sounds or phonemes was totally useless to me because I never write the dictionary and seldom use probably 95 percent of it. The words that I use 95 percent of the time are most likely only about 5 or 10 percent of the dictionary.

    I would like to see results of a frequency count compiled from phonemes as they are really used. Also, I'd like to see a frequency count of phonemes, diphones, triphones, word combinations and phrases compiled.

    I've done some additional research on the words I use and am willing to share my results of phonemes descending by frequency list if you are interested.

    Lee

===
on 10/9/01 2:15 AM, em pee wrote:

Hi all,

For those interested in alphabet design, here are the 20 most
common phonemes, pairs, and triples of phonemes as they occur
in individual English words. This is from a quick scan of the
CMU dictionary (write me for details).

There could be two uses for this.  First, the more commonly
used phonemes could be written with easier strokes in your
favorite phonetic alphabet. For example, L is the fourth most
common phoneme, but in Quickscript has two curves, so is not as
efficient as other phonemes less used. (Perhaps that's because
of letter joining concerns in QS?) In the first Shaw
alphabet, it's only one curve.  

Second, compression.  We can already abbreviate common words
with consonants, but perhaps a very few new symbols could be
used to represent common paired or tripled phoneme sequences
within words (as opposed to joining two existing symbols).

The CMU dict and phoneme definitions are here: http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict

I hope someone will find this useful!


    freq phones     freq diphones   freq triphones
    ---- ------     ---- --------   ---- ---------
   76691 AH         21739 AH-N          3521 M-AH-N      
   57683 N         12026 AH-L          2602 SH-AH-N      
   47502 S          9090 S-T          2198 AH-N-Z      
   46844 L          7129 IH-NG          2076 AH-N-T      
   45599 T          6955 M-AH          1977 S-AH-N      
   43619 R          6748 R-AH          1749 T-AH-N      
   40371 K          6637 T-AH          1537 AH-S-T      
   36550 IH          6498 AH-S          1527 K-AH-N      
   33008 IY          6216 L-AH          1468 AH-N-D      
   30450 D          6050 AA-R          1449 B-AH-L      
   27944 M          5991 R-IY          1377 L-AH-N      
   27606 ER          5927 S-AH          1366 K-AH-L      
   26627 EH          5771 AO-R          1350 EY-SH-AH      
   25735 Z          5708 N-T          1343 AH-N-S      
   23504 AA          5704 K-AH          1338 T-AH-D      
   20549 AE          5667 IH-N          1315 AE-N-D      
   19904 B          5387 L-IY          1271 S-T-R      
   18540 P          5230 AE-N          1182 T-IH-NG      
   17971 OW          5206 N-AH          1131 L-IH-NG      
   12936 F          5155 IH-K          1129 S-T-AH      
   12909 G          5096 N-D          1104 R-AH-N      



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1166

From: James L. Weaver <jlweaver@l...>
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2001 4:08pm
Subject: RE: Phoneme Frequencies
 
I would be interested in your findings on usage-based frequency.

Thanks,

James L. (Jim) Weaver,
Chief Scientist
Learning Assistant Technologies, Inc.
4201 S. Washington St.
Marion, IN 46953
765.677.2685


-----Original Message-----
From: shavian@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shavian@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 8:55 AM
To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shavian] Phoneme Frequencies
Importance: Low


Hi Mitch,

It look's like we both spent time on this research on the CMU
pronunciation dictionary. My conclusion was the data I compiled in an
effort
to find the most frequent sounds or phonemes was totally useless to me
because I never write the dictionary and seldom use probably 95 percent of
it. The words that I use 95 percent of the time are most likely only about
5
or 10 percent of the dictionary.

I would like to see results of a frequency count compiled from phonemes
as they are really used. Also, I'd like to see a frequency count of
phonemes, diphones, triphones, word combinations and phrases compiled.

I've done some additional research on the words I use and am willing to
share my results of phonemes descending by frequency list if you are
interested.

Lee

===
on 10/9/01 2:15 AM, em pee wrote:

>> Hi all,
>>
>> For those interested in alphabet design, here are the 20 most
>> common phonemes, pairs, and triples of phonemes as they occur
>> in individual English words. This is from a quick scan of the
>> CMU dictionary (write me for details).
>>
>> There could be two uses for this. First, the more commonly
>> used phonemes could be written with easier strokes in your
>> favorite phonetic alphabet. For example, L is the fourth most
>> common phoneme, but in Quickscript has two curves, so is not as
>> efficient as other phonemes less used. (Perhaps that's because
>> of letter joining concerns in QS?) In the first Shaw
>> alphabet, it's only one curve.
>>
>> Second, compression. We can already abbreviate common words
>> with consonants, but perhaps a very few new symbols could be
>> used to represent common paired or tripled phoneme sequences
>> within words (as opposed to joining two existing symbols).
>>
>> The CMU dict and phoneme definitions are here:
>> http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict
>>
>> I hope someone will find this useful!
>>
>>
>> freq phones freq diphones freq triphones
>> ---- ------ ---- -------- ---- ---------
>> 76691 AH 21739 AH-N 3521 M-AH-N
>> 57683 N 12026 AH-L 2602 SH-AH-N
>> 47502 S 9090 S-T 2198 AH-N-Z
>> 46844 L 7129 IH-NG 2076 AH-N-T
>> 45599 T 6955 M-AH 1977 S-AH-N
>> 43619 R 6748 R-AH 1749 T-AH-N
>> 40371 K 6637 T-AH 1537 AH-S-T
>> 36550 IH 6498 AH-S 1527 K-AH-N
>> 33008 IY 6216 L-AH 1468 AH-N-D
>> 30450 D 6050 AA-R 1449 B-AH-L
>> 27944 M 5991 R-IY 1377 L-AH-N
>> 27606 ER 5927 S-AH 1366 K-AH-L
>> 26627 EH 5771 AO-R 1350 EY-SH-AH
>> 25735 Z 5708 N-T 1343 AH-N-S
>> 23504 AA 5704 K-AH 1338 T-AH-D
>> 20549 AE 5667 IH-N 1315 AE-N-D
>> 19904 B 5387 L-IY 1271 S-T-R
>> 18540 P 5230 AE-N 1182 T-IH-NG
>> 17971 OW 5206 N-AH 1131 L-IH-NG
>> 12936 F 5155 IH-K 1129 S-T-AH
>> 12909 G 5096 N-D 1104 R-AH-N
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> ADVERTISEMENT
>> finalURL =
>>
>"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168643.1620686.3205344.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213
030
>> :HM/A=816901/R=0/*http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?cid=12973";
>> finalURL2 =
>>
>"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168643.1620686.3205344.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213
030
>>
>:HM/A=816901/R=1/*http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=DEPARTMENT_I
D=2
>> 2=12969=f"; finalURL3 =
>>
>"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168643.1620686.3205344.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213
030
>>
>:HM/A=816901/R=2/*http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=DEPARTMENT_I
D=3
>> 0=12968=f"; finalURL4 =
>>
>"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168643.1620686.3205344.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213
030
>>
>:HM/A=816901/R=3/*http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=DEPARTMENT_I
D=3
>> 5=12967=f"; finalURL5 =
>>
>"http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168643.1620686.3205344.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213
030
>>
>:HM/A=816901/R=4/*http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=DEPARTMENT_I
D=2
>> 1=12970=f"; var flashFileURL =
>> "http://us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/overstock_com/redosyahoo.swf"; var
>noFlashImg =
>> "http://us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/overstock_com/osyahooalt.jpg"; function
>> makeNewWindow(url) { var newWindow = window.open(url); }
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>>
1167

From: Mitchell Perilstein <mitch@e...>
Date: Tue Oct 9, 2001 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Phoneme Frequencies
 
On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:55:23 -0600
Lee Hickenlooper <leehickenlooper@m...> wrote:

| I would like to see results of a frequency count compiled from phonemes
| as they are really used. Also, I'd like to see a frequency count of
| phonemes, diphones, triphones, word combinations and phrases compiled.

Agreed. The dict answered how often do they occur in the dict, not really how
often they occur in writing. It would be easy to extend the dict program to do this.

Can anyone suggest a useful, modern corpus? It seems the problem is
how to find one that embodies how *most* people write:
- The Gutenburg archive and other free texts have old writings in them (wherefore art thou...).
- Usenet postings have lots of modern writing, but lots of non-native speakers' writings and
lots of those who chose not to (War3Z, D00dZ) and spam (FREE SEX!!!)
- We could grab the news wires, but who writes like journalists? Maybe if we skip headlines.

My vote would be to pick just a few large writings by several authors if we could agree on
whose. Must be free, in plain text or HTML. Must not be domain-specific, or it will throw off
the count.

Later, - Mitch
1168

From: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:53pm
Subject: Re: Phoneme Frequencies
 
Mitchell Perilstein wrote:
> Can anyone suggest a useful, modern corpus?

The Calgary text-compression corpus, or whatever its successor is called?

> - The Gutenburg archive and other free texts have old
> writings in them (wherefore art thou...).

But not all of Gutenberg is that old-fashioned, I think.

> plain text or HTML

Well, if you're looking for a phoneme distribution, it really needs to be
marked up in phonemes and not traditional orthography. Automatic translation
by reference to a dictionary can't tell you whether "read" rhymes with
"reed" or with "red", so you don't know whether that's a count for (Shavian)
/I/ or (Shavian) /e/. Or "invalid" being /invAlid/ (not valid) or /invalid/
(handicapped). So getting a standard corpus only solves half the problem if
it's in traditional orthography.

Getting a phoneme count on _Androcles_ would be a start, though. That's
already marked up in phonemes.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1169

From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 0:15am
Subject: Re: Phoneme Frequencies
 
Philip is right. There's no value in collecting statistics from any document that not written in Shavian.

But I'm afraid the beloved /andrOklIz  hardly satisfies as a useful text either.  Like every play, it's most common words are the characters' names, which lead off every paragraph.  At least they would have to be eliminated to produce any  data remotely useful.

I have Shavianed the first twenty pages of the gargantuan Preface to  /andrOklIz, and even run some character counts on it, but it is so frought with the peculiar words with which Shaw builds his argument (Christianity, redemption, salvation, atonement, Gospels etc.) that it hardly qualifies as a "general text." for statistical purposes.

Add to that that it's my middle American accent that did the transliterating, and not good King George's, and what have you got of use?

/not muc.


Well, if you're looking for a phoneme distribution, it really needs to be
marked up in phonemes and not traditional orthography. Automatic translation
by reference to a dictionary can't tell you whether "read" rhymes with
"reed" or with "red", so you don't know whether that's a count for (Shavian)
/I/ or (Shavian) /e/. Or "invalid" being /invAlid/ (not valid) or /invalid/
(handicapped). So getting a standard corpus only solves half the problem if
it's in traditional orthography.

Getting a phoneme count on _Androcles_ would be a start, though. That's
already marked up in phonemes.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
  /wUdstak  /nV /jDk

"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
 evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
                   - /gPJ /bxnRd /SY
1170

From: Mitchell Perilstein <mitch@e...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 6:56am
Subject: Re: Phoneme Frequencies
 
On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:15:19 -0400
Robert McBroom <info@o...> wrote:

| Philip is right. There's no value in collecting statistics from any
| document that not written in Shavian.

Good idea, you guys, to look at Shavian'ed docs. Fortunately, there ARE some shavian'ed docs
in various places on the net aside from Androcles. When I get a chance I will write some code
to scan them and report what I find.

Another thought is to identify all the homographs in the phonemic dictionary and attempt to correct
for them, either by discarding them or by attempting to determine which was meant by the context;
a large undertaking. But then the dictionary could be used against any text.

Best,
--
Mitchell Perilstein
mitch@e...
www.enetis.net/~mitch
+1 (605) 574-2367
1171

From: Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Wed Oct 10, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: Re: Phoneme Frequencies
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Mitchell Perilstein <mitch@e...>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: dinsdag 9 oktober 2001 20:11
Onderwerp: Re: [shavian] Phoneme Frequencies


>On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:55:23 -0600
>Lee Hickenlooper <leehickenlooper@m...> wrote:
>
> | I would like to see results of a frequency count compiled from
phonemes
> | as they are really used. Also, I'd like to see a frequency count of
> | phonemes, diphones, triphones, word combinations and phrases compiled.
>
>Agreed. The dict answered how often do they occur in the dict, not really
how
>often they occur in writing. It would be easy to extend the dict program
to do this.
>
>Can anyone suggest a useful, modern corpus? It seems the problem is
>how to find one that embodies how *most* people write:
> - The Gutenburg archive and other free texts have old writings in them
(wherefore art thou...).
> - Usenet postings have lots of modern writing, but lots of non-native
speakers' writings and
> lots of those who chose not to (War3Z, D00dZ) and spam (FREE SEX!!!)
> - We could grab the news wires, but who writes like journalists? Maybe if
we skip headlines.
>

I once did something like this for letter frequency in Dutch texts. I took a
bunch of texts from a typing course program and a few help files and had
computer programs count the amount of letters. I renembered the most
occurring letters, because they formed a pronouncable 'word': Enatirodls.

Typing course texts are texts about a variety of subjects and writing
styles, so you might want to take a look at something like that.

Ewout
1172

From: Levi der Eroberer <spizzgat@y...>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Shaw Script
 
--- In shavian@y..., "Robert S. Reeser" <reeser@c...> wrote:
> Does anyone have a copy of Andy Callaway's ShawScript TrueType font? It is
> no longer avaiable at his site, and he tells me he is having difficulty
> finding it on his system.
>
> If anyone would be willing to e-mail me a copy, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Actually, it's within 4 clicks of the mouse.

Click "Files" on the left, then navigate through "Fonts" and "Windows." Click on
Shawscrp.ttf . The file should start downloading. If not, try right-clicking on the name
of the file.
1173

From: Levi der Eroberer <spizzgat@y...>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 11:47pm
Subject: Re: Help! I'm an American!
 
--- In shavian@y..., Robert McBroom <info@o...> wrote:
> Your posting reminds me that - in my few months as a member - I have
> noticed that we all have our particular "blind spots"
>
> I too am rhotic American, and never had an issue with ah and awe.
> For me, when the doctor sticks the tongue depressor in your mouth he
> says "sE a!". And when the crow makes noise he "kYz".
>
> My own personal blind spot is x w and D which certainly sound
> identical to my ears. Can you - /jAkI t /jAkF - help me with this
> distinction?

The difference between err and array is stress. Err is stressed and array isn't. In
British speech, they are pronounced differently, but for Americans the stress rule is
sufficient.

However, in my dialect, up and ado are separate phonemes. Ado is always
unstressed, but up also occurs in unstressed positions (like "unstressed" and
"peanut", which aren't anstrest and pInat, but unstrest and pInut.

Ah, on and awe are one and the same in my dialect, but I have learned to
differentiate ah/on and awe in speech (mainly by flipping thru dictionary
pronunciation guides and figuring out the rules) and all three in Shavian text. I found
that "awe" occurs under these circumstances:

If you know one of the three will be used, remember these rules to select which one
it is:
On: Use as the short "o" and in "ough"-combinations. (not, fought, cough)
Ah: Usually spelt "a" as in 'father' and 'yacht' (garage, llama)
Awe: Always use for 'au' and 'aw' combinations, 'al' or 'all' combinations, and the
words 'broad' and 'Broadway' (Australia, raw, altar, ball)

BTW, how do you change the font to show Shavian characters instead of Roman
ones?
1174

From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2001 5:07am
Subject: Re: Re: Help! I'm an American!
 
On 15 Oct 01, at 22:47, Levi der Eroberer wrote:

> If you know one of the three will be used, remember these rules to select which one
> it is:
> On: Use as the short "o" and in "ough"-combinations. (not, fought, cough)
> Ah: Usually spelt "a" as in 'father' and 'yacht' (garage, llama)
> Awe: Always use for 'au' and 'aw' combinations, 'al' or 'all' combinations, and the
> words 'broad' and 'Broadway' (Australia, raw, altar, ball)

"ough" for me takes the "awe" vowel. "caught", "court", and "fought"
rhyme for me. (But "cough" rhymes with "off" and takes the "on" vowel.)

And I say "Ostraylia" and not "Awestraylia". (And my "yacht" rhymes
with "pot".)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
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