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1175

From: Simon Barne <sosostris@b...>
Date: Wed Oct 17, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: English too hard
 
"The complex syllable structure and spelling of English are the likely
reasons why children are slower at learning basic reading and writing
skills in English than in any other European language, according to new
research. The study by Professor Philip Seymour, from Dundee University,
of 700 primary school children in 15 European countries showed the
English speaking sample took two and a half years to master "the basic
foundation elements of literacy" compared with a year elsewhere."

From: http://education.guardian.co.uk
1176

From:   Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 19, 2001 2:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Help! I'm an American!
 
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmx.net>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: woensdag 17 oktober 2001 6:07
Onderwerp: Re: [shavian] Re: Help! I'm an American!

>On 15 Oct 01, at 22:47, Levi der Eroberer wrote:
>
>> If you know one of the three will be used, remember these rules to select which one
>> it is:
>> On: Use as the short "o" and in "ough"-combinations. (not, fought, cough)
>> Ah: Usually spelt "a" as in 'father' and 'yacht' (garage, llama)
>> Awe: Always use for 'au' and 'aw' combinations, 'al' or 'all' combinations, and the
>> words 'broad' and 'Broadway' (Australia, raw, altar, ball)
>
>"ough" for me takes the "awe" vowel. "caught", "court", and "fought"
>rhyme for me. (But "cough" rhymes with "off" and takes the "on" vowel.)
>
>And I say "Ostraylia" and not "Awestraylia". (And my "yacht" rhymes
>with "pot".)
>
>Cheers,
>Philip
>--
>Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@gmx.net>
 
I guess as long as people know what you're saying you're all right. I can't make a difference between e and A, but I do know when to use which one. My A sounds like e (just a little longer in length, and I try to mix it with the Dutch 'aa' (lange a), a sound that doesn't occur in English).
 
I think the Dutch 'aa' is the IPA a.
 
My U turns in either a a or M.
 
But I write U, even if I don't pronounce it that way.
1177

From: Vir Strakul <strakul@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2001 1:35am
Subject: Learning Strategies
 
I'm new to the Shavian language and am trying to learn it. For those
who are more experienced with this language, what strategy would you
recommend for learning it?
I am first trying to be able to read it and then I'll try to learn
how to write it. Is this a good strategy or should I first learn to
write it?
I know there are many ways to learn it but I want the easiest and
fastest way to do so. Any other advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Vir Strakul
1178

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2001 2:09pm
Subject: Re: Learning Strategies
 
Think of how you learn any written language. I learned to read english
long before I learned to write it, this helped me to understand the
sound that the letters make. When I learned Hiragana, I learned by
reading the symbols, writing came later. I think you already have the
best strategy. Shavian is no different, really, from cyrillic or the
japanese kana, except that it is a sort of kana for brittish english.

Long live first shaw!
Star


--- Vir Strakul <strakul@h...> wrote:
> I'm new to the Shavian language and am trying to learn it. For those
> who are more experienced with this language, what strategy would you
> recommend for learning it?
> I am first trying to be able to read it and then I'll try to learn
> how to write it. Is this a good strategy or should I first learn to
> write it?
> I know there are many ways to learn it but I want the easiest and
> fastest way to do so. Any other advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Vir Strakul
>
>


=====
YESTERDAY this day's madness did prepare
TOMORROW's Silence, Triumph, or Dispair
Drink! for you know not whence you came or why:
Drink! for you know not why you go, nor where!

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
1179

From: Robin Andrews <robin.andrews@p...>
Date: Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:10pm
Subject: RE: [Shavian] Learning Strategies
 
Actually, my advice would be that you can't take reading or writing in
isolation. I've learnt to write in Japanese as well as Shavian, and I found
that the best way is to make it a doodle. Learn how to write a word and then
scribble it when you're bored. When there's something on your mind, write it
in Shavian. And then read back everything you've written. You're not
learning like a child anymore. You already know what it means to read, it's
just getting your brain used to the characters. And the best way to learn is
to make it a pastime, so sitting down and saying 'right, now I'm going to
learn how to write like this' doesn't, in my experience, work as well
learning to write something that's 'interesting', something that means
something to you, and then trying absent mindedly recall it every now and
then. I found that nursery rhymes are particularly good practise as they
tend to repeat the same sounds over and over again. You'll be surprised how
quickly you'll pick it up.



-----Original Message-----
From: Star Raven [mailto:celestraof12worlds@y...]
Sent: 25 October 2001 15:09
To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shavian] Learning Strategies


Think of how you learn any written language. I learned to read english
long before I learned to write it, this helped me to understand the
sound that the letters make. When I learned Hiragana, I learned by
reading the symbols, writing came later. I think you already have the
best strategy. Shavian is no different, really, from cyrillic or the
japanese kana, except that it is a sort of kana for brittish english.

Long live first shaw!
Star


--- Vir Strakul <strakul@h...> wrote:
> I'm new to the Shavian language and am trying to learn it. For those
> who are more experienced with this language, what strategy would you
> recommend for learning it?
> I am first trying to be able to read it and then I'll try to learn
> how to write it. Is this a good strategy or should I first learn to
> write it?
> I know there are many ways to learn it but I want the easiest and
> fastest way to do so. Any other advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Vir Strakul
>
>
1180

From: richardcutler <cutler@i...>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Learning Strategies
 
Greetings Vir,
The Shavian Alphabet interests me as a teaching tool. The method I am
developing might help your approach to learning it.
I believe in teaching the SOUND to the learner in combination with the
SYMBOL. Then I write the Shavian symbols under the word printed in the
English Alphabet. This has the added advantage of allowing the learner to
'photograph' the irregular and illogical spellings of the English words
printed above the Shavian sound symbols, that sound alike but are spelled
differently. (For example: sleight and bite; sleigh and slay)
As I am not interested in Shavian as a means for writing fast or saving
space, I do not use the suggested abbreviations, since anyone learning
English needs to know that one says An Apple and A Peach. Abbreviations do
not make the distinction between A and AN or THE before a consonant and THE
(pronounced thee) before a vowel.
In order to teach Shavian it is essential to standardize the pronunciation,
so I use the pronunciation of the English Oxford Dictionary, which is the
basis for spelling, pronunciation, and usage of Standard English (or
Received English). American pronunciations would seriously confuse the
issue, as would a Scots, Irish or any British regional accent.
If you do try this method, please let me know what you think of it as a
means of teaching both English and the Shavian Phonetic System.
Regards, Quentin Kyle. PS In reply use only: cutler@i..., I use the
e-mail of a friend and my own name would confuse the server.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vir Strakul" <strakul@h...>
To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:35 AM
Subject: [shavian] Learning Strategies


> I'm new to the Shavian language and am trying to learn it. For those
> who are more experienced with this language, what strategy would you
> recommend for learning it?
> I am first trying to be able to read it and then I'll try to learn
> how to write it. Is this a good strategy or should I first learn to
> write it?
> I know there are many ways to learn it but I want the easiest and
> fastest way to do so. Any other advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Vir Strakul
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
1181

From: Y.Penzev <yitzchaq@m...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 0:44pm
Subject: Hi from Ukraine
 
halO, dC frendz!
F Am a liNgwist from /VkrEn. in /iNgliS V mE kYl mI /Fzak.
if V R intrastid, F hOp F'l bI Ebl t prAktis /SEvWn wiH V.
 
sinsCli jPz,
-- /Fzak
1182

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: Re: Hi from Ukraine
 
Hello, /Fzak! Welcome to Shavian! Hooray for George Bernard Shaw! I hope you enjoy the list. I know that it allows us to both practice in and read Shavian --- "Y.Penzev" wrote: > halO, dC frendz! > F Am a liNgwist from /VkrEn. in /iNgliS V mE kYl mI /Fzak. > if V R intrastid, F hOp F'l bI Ebl t prAktis /SEvWn wiH V. > > sinsCli jPz, > -- /Fzak >

YESTERDAY this day's madness did prepare
TOMORROW's Silence, Triumph, or Dispair
Drink! for you know not whence you came or why:
Drink! for you know not why you go, nor where!

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
1183

From: Y.Penzev <yitzchaq@m...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:12pm
Subject: Re: Hi from Ukraine
 
Dear Star Raven!
Glad to hear from you!

----- Original Message -----
From: Star Raven
To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Hi from Ukraine


> Hello, /Fzak!

/Fzak shoud mean 'Isaac', I s'pose... :-))
1184

From: Simon Barne <sosostris@b...>
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2001 2:25pm
Subject: Vanished websites
 
Does anyone know what has happened to these sites? I am updating my list
of links.

Lionel Ghoti's - formerly at http://www.shavian.f9.co.uk/

A.M. Callaway's - formerly at
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~acal/PhonPage.html

Gary Shannon's - formerly at http://www.teleport.com/~fiziwig/shaw.html


Simon Barne
still at http://www.simonbarne.com/shavian/
1185

From: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2001 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Vanished websites
 
Simon Barne wrote:
> Does anyone know what has happened to these sites? I am
> updating my list of links.

Hmm... bummer. I can't get to any of them, either.

If anyone whose site is still up wants to mirror their data at
http://www.shavian.org/ , they're welcome to do so, as far as I'm concerned.
(Or if anyone wants a yourname@s... email address.)

I wonder whether Google's cache can help with restoring data? Unfortunately,
I think it only caches HTML, so any images or fonts on those pages will be
lost.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1186

From: Lee <leehickenlooper@m...>
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2001 3:28pm
Subject: Re: Vanished websites
 
Try

http://www.archive.org/

Lee

on 12/7/01 7:25 AM, Simon Barne wrote:

Does anyone know what has happened to these sites? I am updating my list
of links.

Lionel Ghoti's - formerly at http://www.shavian.f9.co.uk/

A.M. Callaway's - formerly at
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~acal/PhonPage.html

Gary Shannon's - formerly at http://www.teleport.com/~fiziwig/shaw.html


Simon Barne
still at http://www.simonbarne.com/shavian/


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .

1187

From:   Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2001 1:52pm
Subject: Word Frequency list
 
Found this:

http://www.invisiblelighthouse.com/langlab/bncfreq.html

perhaps somebody can use it.

Ewout
1188

From:   Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Vanished websites
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Simon Barne <sosostris@b...>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: vrijdag 7 december 2001 15:26
Onderwerp: [shavian] Vanished websites


>Does anyone know what has happened to these sites? I am updating my list
>of links.
>
>Lionel Ghoti's - formerly at http://www.shavian.f9.co.uk/
>
>A.M. Callaway's - formerly at
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~acal/PhonPage.html

It's moved here:

http://www.geocities.com/andy_callaway/


Ewout
1189

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2001 11:41pm
Subject: Did Read make a mistake?
 
      
Attachment: (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmail69.gif [not stored]
1190

From:   Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2001 9:01pm
Subject: Re: Did Read make a mistake?
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>;
saundspel@yahoogroups.com <saundspel@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: zondag 9 december 2001 0:48
Onderwerp: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

[...SNIP...]

[...
Hmm. I don't really understood Shavian ligatures like this after I found out
about Quikscript.

The air sound is IPA [e@r] (even if you don't pronounce the r, always write
it in shavian if it's written in TO!) I pronouce it as some sort of
prolonged IPA [3]. You could say it's followed by something like a schwa [@]
and even an r in rhotic accents (or did rhotic mean without r? It's a little
late and my mind's getting sleepy.)

In Quikscript, Air is written Er (yup, that's two separate letters,
connected in handwriting).

In Quikscript, Err and Array are merged, considered to be one. The
difference is stress, I guess. I think that Err is IPA [3:r] and Array is
IPA [@r]

Anyway, with Quikscript, the only distinction is made between air and array.
I can't mistake those. And there is Ear. Those sounds are clearly
distinguished in Dutch, for example in these words:

eer (sounds like ear)

water (the 'er' sounds like array)

er (sounds like air but less in length)

In the Dutch spelling system there is the 'short e' and the 'long e'. 'Long
e' is Shavian E, and 'short e' is Shavian e. When the 'long e' is followed
by an r it changes. This change is regular.

If you want to hear me pronounce these words, contact me and I'll create
some wav-files for you.

Maybe this'll help you understand the IPA vowels. I wanna study it closely
too.

http://www.sil.org/computing/speechtools/softdev2/IPAhelp2/ipavowel2.htm

Ewout
1191

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2001 3:58am
Subject: Re: Did Read make a mistake?
 
Steve
 
You're obviously 100% correct. This argument holds much more water than that which suggested that 'h' and 'N' were reversed. I don't recall it being discussed before, but if we take a quick peek at Quickscript, we can see instantly that the symbols have been flipped so as to be the 'right' way round.
 
However, I should add that no error in the Alphabet, whether obvious or perceived (Cf: the 'hung-haha' issue), should ever be 'corrected'. It would constitute a fundamental deviation from 'Androclesian' Shavian; the published alphabet is, for most Shavian users, the only one thing that can be said to be truly constant.
 
Someone add this to Shavian's 'cute little glitches' list:)
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

       [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it  appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in  her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda    [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD  [hX mXdD]

The curved decender  [e]  is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x]  What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r.   or eir.
The airline made an error  might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD  [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

       [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it  appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in  her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda    [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD  [hX mXdD]

The curved decender  [e]  is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x]  What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r.   or eir.
The airline made an error  might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD  [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

       [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it  appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in  her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda    [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD  [hX mXdD]

The curved decender  [e]  is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x]  What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r.   or eir.
The airline made an error  might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD  [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html
 
 
 

Attachment: (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmail69.gif [not stored]
1192

From: stbett <stbett@y...>
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2001 4:00am
Subject: Re: Did Read make a mistake?
 
Hugh,

Thanks for finding some additional support for the argument that
the compound symbols for the vowels in <heard> /h3rd/ and <hair>
/heir/ were reversed.

I checked Androcles and it appears that heard /h3rd/ is consistently
spelled haired /heird/.

So we stick with the established convention and have to forget about
using the logic behind the phonograms shapes.

----

Unike the err-air reversal, the ha-ha [h] hung [N] reversal was not
corrected in Quick Script.

The logic of having all talls represent unvoiced consonants was
evidently not as strong as that of having consistent component shapes.

voiced-unvoiced chart
http://www.unifon.org/48sax-fonogram.gif

----

I wonder if there are any other independent ways to verify this.

The reason I ask is that it appears that some of the letterforms may
have been deliberately obscured, e.g., dh and th. I would have made
the dh similar to the crossed D in icelandic and the th like the
thorn. This is probably not a good example because the the th in
thigh is unvoiced and therefore would have to be a tall.

----

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples.html



--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> Steve
>
> You're obviously 100% correct. This argument holds much more water
than that which suggested that 'h' and 'N' were reversed. I don't
recall it being discussed before, but if we take a quick peek at
Quickscript, we can see instantly that the symbols have been flipped
so as to be the 'right' way round.
>
> However, I should add that no error in the Alphabet, whether obvious
or perceived (Cf: the 'hung-haha' issue), should ever be 'corrected'.
It would constitute a fundamental deviation from 'Androclesian'
Shavian; the published alphabet is, for most Shavian users, the only
one thing that can be said to be truly constant.
>
> Someone add this to Shavian's 'cute little glitches' list:)
>
> Hugh
1193

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2001 6:08am
Subject: Shavian Transcription Challenge
 
On the George Bernard Shaw Page
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.htm
there is a nonsense paragraph that
Shaw [1941] used to show the
superiority of a unigraphic script.

I have made my own transcription but
I would like for others to try their
hand at it and then compare their transcription what I have posted at
http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples

--Steve

THE TRANSCRIPTION CHALLENGE

Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge
at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his
billiards so highly. Quick! quick! hear the queer story how father and
son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the
tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast
to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by
the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor
boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless
empty instinct ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo.

Steve

http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples



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1194

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2001 3:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Did Read make a mistake?
 
Maybe a dialectal difference? Yay for dialects, they make the world go
'round!

Love and luck,
A silly American,
Star

> Thanks for finding some additional support for the argument that
> the compound symbols for the vowels in <heard> /h3rd/ and <hair>
> /heir/ were reversed.
>
> I checked Androcles and it appears that heard /h3rd/ is consistently
> spelled haired /heird/.
>
> So we stick with the established convention and have to forget about
> using the logic behind the phonograms shapes.


=====
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Fran Lebowitz

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
1195

From: nerd525 <spizzgat@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Transcription Challenge
 
--- In shavian@y..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
> On the George Bernard Shaw Page
> http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.htm
> there is a nonsense paragraph that
> Shaw [1941] used to show the
> superiority of a unigraphic script.
>
> I have made my own transcription but
> I would like for others to try their
> hand at it and then compare their transcription what I have posted at
> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples
>
> --Steve
>
> THE TRANSCRIPTION CHALLENGE
>
> Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge
> at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his
> billiards so highly. Quick! quick! hear the queer story how father and
> son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the
> tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast
> to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by
> the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor
> boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless
> empty instinct ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo.
>
> Steve
>
> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples

There has already been such a challenge:
http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/shawtest.html

But after having submitted my entry over a year ago, I find the page has not been updated recently, so here's my try at it, in my Northern New York State dialect:

/cEN At lIZD wuz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H bXWl in /mXWn /skwX v /hFpCWn H /ElWn hM vAlVd hiz bilIDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tMgeHD sxvd bF H kXID, hMz nXOD mFnd HrM bC wuz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlis emptI instiNkt ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO.
1196

From: nerd525 <spizzgat@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:34pm
Subject: Re: Did Read make a mistake?
 
--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> Maybe a dialectal difference? Yay for dialects, they make the world go
> 'round!
>
> Love and luck,
> A silly American,
> Star

Perhaps. Noah Webster actually proposed pronouncing the word 'heard' as hCd, rhyming with 'beard'. Unfortunately, it never caught on.
1197

From:   Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 11:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Shavian Transcription Challenge
 
I made it some time ago too. I'm more of a quickscript user, but I'll try to
find it and then post it.


This is more or less my pronunciation, but I made it when I was quite a
novice, so it could use some correction.

I too would like to contribute, especially because I'm no native speaker of
English. I'm Dutch myself and I have a somewhat 'posh' accent. Being Dutch I
can cleary distinguish awe, on and ah, but I have trouble pronouncing ash
and and the oo in wool. I do know when to use them (so they are transcibed
correctly). Furthermore my written TO English is better than my spoken
English, for I read more English than I hear. For some words I could only
have guessed the pronunciation (I was too lazy to get a dictionary). Anyway,
it could be interesting to see how close I am to Androcles.


/cAN At leZD wyz sMperiD t /liS in hiz rMZ, munSiN a cOzenZ At H berWl in
/merion /skwX v /hFperion H ElWn hM vAlVd hiz biljDdz sO hFli. kwik! kwik!
hC H kwC stPi hQ fyHD n son wyn tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN
H tEl v H fir on H rOd t H siti bF H sI fylOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM
fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kAriD, hMz nAlOD mFnd TrM bC wyz sP
n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNDiN in a tANal v tAktlas enpti
instiNkt, ineptli swylOiN kwRts v stiNgO.

Many Dutch people have this Dutch accent in their English. It can still be
understood but sounds very odd. I can try to rewrite this text in Dutch
accent too. Anyone interested?

Ewout Stam [/EvQt /stym]
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: nerd525 <spizzgat@y...>
Aan: shavian@yahoogroups.com <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: donderdag 24 januari 2002 20:35
Onderwerp: [shavian] Re: Shavian Transcription Challenge


>--- In shavian@y..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
>> On the George Bernard Shaw Page
>> http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.htm
>> there is a nonsense paragraph that
>> Shaw [1941] used to show the
>> superiority of a unigraphic script.
>>
>> I have made my own transcription but
>> I would like for others to try their
>> hand at it and then compare their transcription what I have posted at
>> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples
>>
>> --Steve
>>
>> THE TRANSCRIPTION CHALLENGE
>>
>> Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge
>> at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his
>> billiards so highly. Quick! quick! hear the queer story how father and
>> son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the
>> tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast
>> to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by
>> the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor
>> boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless
>> empty instinct ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples
>
>There has already been such a challenge:
>http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/shawtest.html
>
>But after having submitted my entry over a year ago, I find the page has
not been updated recently, so here's my try at it, in my Northern New York
State dialect:
>
>/cEN At lIZD wuz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H bXWl in
/mXWn /skwX v /hFpCWn H /ElWn hM vAlVd hiz bilIDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H
kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H
tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz
dIp. HX HE livd tMgeHD sxvd bF H kXID, hMz nXOD mFnd HrM bC wuz sP n hMz pP
bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlis emptI instiNkt
ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO.
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
1198

From: m. vero <vrn111@h...>
Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:08pm
Subject:

 

230.99 a kors in mirakulz nOts az quOts:

e Onli purpos v a kors in mirakulz

iz t provId a wA in wich som pEpul

wil be Abul t fInd ther On internal tEcher.

H Onli pxpos v a kPs in mCakalz

iz t provFd a wE in wic som pIpal

wil bI Ebal t fFnd HX On intxnal tIcD.

nothing rEl kan be thretend.

nothing unrEl xists

hErin lIz e pEs v god.

noTiN rIl kAn bI Tretend.

noTiN unrIl ekzists

hCin lFz H pEs v god.

 

e kors in mirakulz iz but wun verzhon

v e Universal kurikUlum. thAr ar mani

otherz, this wun difering from them

Onli in form. thA aul lEd t god in e end.

H kPs in mCakalz iz bat wan vxZon

v H VnivDsal kDikVlam. HX R mani

oHDz, His wan difDiN from Hem

Onli in fPm. HE Yl lId t god in H end.

 

nolej iz trooth; unaulterabul, Eternal, n

unambigUus. it iz without begining or

end. it mErli iz.

noleJ iz trMT; unYltDabal, Itxnal, n

unAmbigVas. it iz wiHQt beginiN P

end. it mCli iz.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A, az in Air; E, in Eat,... au, az in auto
t = to   e = the   v = of    n = and
*tranzishunal fonik

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1201

From: Rick aka Flyfisher <geoflyfisher@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:41am
Subject: Letterboxing and Shavian
 
HX iz sam intrest in SEvW

in H letxboksiN grMp.

HX R SEvW boksez in /OhFO /mEn n /teksaz.

Have fun and check it out at www.letterboxing.org My first Shavian box is "Hooked on Phonics" listed under Ohio.

There are a couple mystery boxes in Maine. And then there is the original Shavian letterbox by member

Egohan... The Shavian Cowboy... (look in Texas)

Having fun learning

Rick aka flyfisher <><


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1202

From: m. vero <vrn111@h...>
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 6:42pm
Subject: fonetik alfabet
 



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A, az in Air; E, in Eat,... au, az in auto
t = to   e = the   v = of    n = and
*tranzishunal fonik
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A, az in Air; E, in Eat,... au, az in auto
t = to   e = the   v = of    n = and
*tranzishunal fonik

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Attachment: (application/octet-stream) 4sound.wri [not stored]
1203

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 8:44pm
Subject: Re: fonetik alfabet
 
Thanks for the update but I am not sure that I understand what you are getting at. Since you are interested in Read's Quickscript, I think I will share with you an alternate quick script that is more in keeping with the Shavian approach. You may also want to check out a new website by Terrence Gibian. It is another attempt at coming up with a augmented phonemic transcription system and alphabet for English. He calls it NEW or New English Alphabet. http://members.cox.net/tcgibian/NEA.htm My phonetic English is very close to yours and can be found at http://www.unifon.org/unifon-intro.html AEIOU is the same as your fonetic english alphabet instead of oo however, I use u. One of the requirements of a typing system is that it must be unigraphic. The only digraphs are for diphthongs - oi and av. v is the short u in hook. I have attached the PMF consonants. All of them are of the p/b form. That is, the voiced/unvoiced pairs are flipped versions of each other. [In Shavian, they were rotated]. PFM is designed for rapid handwriting. In printed form it is a font for the U2 keyboarding script. U2 or Unifon 2 is my version of fonetic english. Regards, Steve Join the saundspel forum http://www.unifon.org/saundspel.html --- "m. vero" wrote:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A, az in Air; E, in Eat,... au, az in auto t = to e = the v = of n = and *tranzishunal fonik


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Attachment: (image/gif) 24pmf-consonants.gif [not stored]
1204

From: Rick aka Flyfisher <geoflyfisher@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:39am
Subject: New Shavian Letterboxes
 

fP HOz hM kAn not get Inaf /SEvWn,

V hAv sam nV letxbokez tM rId.

cek Qt H linkz bIlO:

/flFfiSx

http://www.qsl.net/ws8g/genesis.htm

http://www.qsl.net/ws8g/protocavefrogs.htm


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1205

From: geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:26am
Subject: Writing Shavian
 
If anyone wants to chat over the next few weeks in shavian...

I have been mostly talking to myself on the shavian board hosted my
mixsynch...

http://www.shavian.f2s.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi

flyfisher
1206

From: stbett <stbett@y...>
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:44am
Subject: Re: Learning Strategies
 
It is a good idea to have a way to check the accuracy of your sound
spellings. The only problem with the English Oxford dictionary is
that it is not generally available.

If you don't mind speaking general amerian [GA] there are three
sources: www.m-w.com [Merriam Webster on-Line]

Carnegie Mellon University
You can link to it from
http://www.unifon.org/q-ref.html

Foreignword.com
http://www.foreignword.com/dictionary/truespel/transpel.htm

I prefer an ascii-ipa for

--- In shavian@y..., "richardcutler" <cutler@i...> wrote:
> Greetings Vir,
> The Shavian Alphabet interests me as a teaching tool. The method I
am
> developing might help your approach to learning it.
> I believe in teaching the SOUND to the learner in combination with
the
> SYMBOL. Then I write the Shavian symbols under the word printed
in the
> English Alphabet. This has the added advantage of allowing the
learner to
> 'photograph' the irregular and illogical spellings of the English
words
> printed above the Shavian sound symbols, that sound alike but are
spelled
> differently. (For example: sleight and bite; sleigh and slay)
> As I am not interested in Shavian as a means for writing fast or
saving
> space, I do not use the suggested abbreviations, since anyone
learning
> English needs to know that one says An Apple and A Peach.
Abbreviations do
> not make the distinction between A and AN or THE before a
consonant and THE
> (pronounced thee) before a vowel.

Unifon: an apcl and c pEC
Spanglish: aen appl annd a piech
Truespel: an apul and u peech
Kirshenbaum: &n ap@l &nd @ piitS
SAMPA }n }p@l }nd @ piitS



> In order to teach Shavian it is essential to standardize the
pronunciation,
> so I use the pronunciation of the English Oxford Dictionary, which
is the
> basis for spelling, pronunciation, and usage of Standard English
(or
> Received English). American pronunciations would seriously
confuse the
> issue, as would a Scots, Irish or any British regional accent.
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