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1299

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 27, 2002 5:42pm
Subject: Difference between y and o in Shavian
 
British American transcription problem

Bob,

..as for the y in "prypaziSan", I think we need to
determine how we are going to handle the British short
o /Q/ which is what Read had in mind for [o]
the sound in "on".

propaziSan would be approximately /praw-p@-'zi-S@n/ in
RP or BBC-E [the aw is a rounded but very short]

Shaw SAMPA/Kirshenbaum convention
o = Q
y = A
Y = O [awe]
O = @U

[The complete IPA/SAMPA phonetic alphabet can be found
at http://groups.yahoogroups.com/saundspel/files]
For more on SAMPA see,
http://www.unifon.org/sampa.html


This is a continuing problem in all pan dialect or
diaphonic phonemic writing systems.

GA speakers do not recognize any difference between
Q and A [o and y] as in the "dont bother father"

GA doUnt bAD@r fAD@r Shavian dOnt byHD fyHD
RP d@Unt bQD@ fAD@ dOnt boHa fyHa

---------------------------

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@y...> wrote:

> Hi Steve,

> Any particular reason for the y in prypaziSan?
> I suggested an 'o'. In fact,
> as an American, I don't see any difference between
> 'y' and 'o', and would
> never use 'y' for any English word to reflect my own
> pronunciation.

> If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> phonemically distinct in
> some dialect (presumably RP), I'd be interested in
> knowing about that.

> I'll be very busy at work this week, but I hope to
> work a bit on a converter for Shavian.

> --- Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > Here is the URL for the page I updated last night.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/transcriptions/shaw-alfa.html


=====


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1300

From: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:13pm
Subject: Re: Difference between y and o in Shavian
 
I read this in the "Shavian" yahoogroup; not sure where it came from
originally, so I'm CC'ing all the people in the original message.

> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@y...> wrote:
>
> > as an American, I don't see any difference between
> > 'y' and 'o', and would never use 'y' for any English
> > word to reflect my own pronunciation.
>
> > If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> > phonemically distinct in some dialect (presumably RP),
> > I'd be interested in knowing about that.

One minimal triplet might be "bot", "baht" (Thai currency unit), and
"bought": the first is "bot" in RP, the second is "byt", and the third is
"bYt". Or "cot", "cart", and "cought" in RP (which is not rhotic); a literal
representation in Shavian would be "cot/cyt/cYt". (However, I use Shavian to
mark up what's basically a rhotic variant of RP, so it would instead be
"cot/cRt/cYt". Similar with "dot/dart/daughter".)

"Bother" and "father" is another example: "boHD" vs "fyHD". Or "lost" and
"last": "lost" vs "lyst". Or "Pom" vs "palm": "pom" vs "pym". Or "loft" vs
"laughed": "loft" vs "lyft". Or "foster" vs "faster": "fostD" vs "fystD".

Is that any help? I can't really explain it; my father speaks RP and I just
grew up with it, so I know where the distinctions are -- but I can imagine
it might be difficult for someone who doesn't make the distinctions natively
to know which vowel would go where in RP.

(Note that not even all British dialects have the same vowel distribution:
for example, in Leicester, they often have /A/ (ASCII IPA /&/, IPA a-e
ligature) where RP has /y/ in words such as "master, path, grass", making
them rhyme with "has to, math, mass".)

So I make a distinction between: bit, beat, bet, bait, bat, bite, but, bot,
boat, foot, boot, bout, boit (if that were a word), baht, and bought. (But I
merge baht/bart and bought/bort in speech, though not in Shavian writing.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1301

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:59pm
Subject: Re: SHAVIAN FONTS LIST
 
Wow! There are more people here than I first thought :) I'm glad you guys are still reading the postings.
 
Off the top my head I only know of Mac versions of Lionspaw, Androcles and Ghoti. I can download the Mac versions of the Androcles and Ghoti fonts from Ross DeMeyere's site, but since Lionel Ghoti's site has been shut down I have no way of getting hold of Lionspaw in Mac format. If anyone has it, please e-mail it to me as soon as possible.
 
If there are any more Mac fonts out there besides the ones I've mentioned, email them to me as well!
 
Thanks
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] SHAVIAN FONTS LIST

I'm a Mac person too!

Lee Hickenlooper

on 3/26/02 11:27 PM, RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
Hugh Birkenhead says:

>>At present the list only includes PC-compatible typefaces - if there is
interest I will go in search of Mac fonts too<<

I need Mac fonts - does anyone else?

Bob Richmond

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1302

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:41am
Subject: Comparing the transcriptions of GA and RP speakers
 
A quick analysis of disagreements between two attempted transcriptions of the GBS nonsense paragraph. - SB

Shavian {Ghoti} transcription below
I beleive the first transcription is by a GA speaker and the 2nd byi an RP speaker.  The greatest differences are with respect to words containing an R combinations.  These words are probably not pronounced the same in GA and RP. The differences between the two transcriptions indicate that even with pronunciation guide spelling, one may need a dictionary or a base pronunciation.
The letters marked in RED below indicate that it is not the same phonogram as found in Hugh's transcription.   .  

 /cAN At lIZD wuz supCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a losenJ At H bXIal in /merWn /skwX v /hFpXIan H ElIan hM vAlVd hiz biljRds sO hFlI.  kwik!  kwik!  hC H kwIr stPI hQ fYHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI fYlOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp.  HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kArIar, hMz nArOD mFnd TrM bIr wuz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFx Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktles emptI instiNkt, ineptlI swYlOiN kwPts v stiNgO. [wF did hI n hiz fyHD bYHD t bIhEv sO wimziklI in suc weHD?]  attempted transcription - some errors

GcAN At leZD woz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H berIal in /merIan /skwX v /hFpCIan H ElIan hM vAlVd hiz biljDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kArID, hMz nArOD mFnd TrM bC woz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlas emptI instiNkt, ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO. [wF did hI n hiz fyHD boHD t bihEv sO wimsiklI in suc weHD?]   Hugh's transcription

Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his billiards so highly. Quick! Quick! Hear the queer story how father and son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless empty instinct, ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo. [Why did he and his father bother to behave so whimsically in such weather?] 


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1303

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Sat Mar 30, 2002 3:10am
Subject: Mac Fonts for Shavian
 
Here are the Shavian fonts that I know of for the Mac platform:
 
 
If there are any problems with accessing or using these files, please let me know ASAP.
 
Hugh
1304

From: Ross DeMeyere <shavian@d...>
Date: Sat Mar 30, 2002 3:44pm
Subject: Re: Mac Fonts for Shavian
 
on 3/29/02 21:10, Hugh Birkenhead at h.birkenhead@u... wrote:

> Here are the Shavian fonts that I know of for the Mac platform:
>
> Androcles & Ghoti-
> http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/content/androcles_ghoti_ps.sit
> Lionspaw - http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/content/lionspaw.sit
>
> If there are any problems with accessing or using these files, please let me
> know ASAP.
>
> Hugh

The official source for the androcles and ghoti fonts with documentation for
both platforms is at :
http://www.demeyere.com/Shavian/info.html
(to those with websites, please do NOT mirror these fonts elsewhere, please
provide links to the above address.)

Thanks you,

Ross DeMeyere

------------------------------------------------------------
DeMeyere Design Incorporated
1951 McKinley ST NE
Minneapolis, MN 55418-4816

tel:612.789.2052
fax:612.789.8028

mailto:ross@d...
http://www.demeyere.com/
1305

From:   Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...>
Date: Sat Mar 30, 2002 6:19pm
Subject: Re: Difference between y and o in Shavian
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Aan: 'shavian@yahoogroups.com' <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
CC: 'Steve Bett' <stbett@y...>; Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@y...>;
saundspel@yahoogroups.com <saundspel@yahoogroups.com>
Datum: woensdag 27 maart 2002 19:27
Onderwerp: Re: [shavian] Difference between y and o in Shavian


>I read this in the "Shavian" yahoogroup; not sure where it came from
>originally, so I'm CC'ing all the people in the original message.
>
>> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@y...> wrote:
>>
>> > as an American, I don't see any difference between
>> > 'y' and 'o', and would never use 'y' for any English
>> > word to reflect my own pronunciation.
>>
>> > If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
>> > phonemically distinct in some dialect (presumably RP),
>> > I'd be interested in knowing about that.
>
>One minimal triplet might be "bot", "baht" (Thai currency unit), and
>"bought": the first is "bot" in RP, the second is "byt", and the third is
>"bYt". Or "cot", "cart", and "cought" in RP (which is not rhotic); a
literal
>representation in Shavian would be "cot/cyt/cYt"
>. (However, I use Shavian to
>mark up what's basically a rhotic variant of RP, so it would instead be
>"cot/cRt/cYt". Similar with "dot/dart/daughter".)
>
>"Bother" and "father" is another example: "boHD" vs "fyHD". Or "lost" and
>"last": "lost" vs "lyst". Or "Pom" vs "palm": "pom" vs "pym". Or "loft" vs
>"laughed": "loft" vs "lyft". Or "foster" vs "faster": "fostD" vs "fystD".

These are excellent.

>
>Is that any help? I can't really explain it; my father speaks RP and I just
>grew up with it, so I know where the distinctions are -- but I can imagine
>it might be difficult for someone who doesn't make the distinctions
natively
>to know which vowel would go where in RP.

Because of my Dutch background, I can hear the difference. The difference
between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding. The tounge doesn't change position, all
that changes is the form of the lips. The difference between 'o' and 'Y' is
length, and a small change of tounge position. But only a very small change.
The sound of 'Y' is the first sound of 'q' (oi), and then lengthened.
Memorise the tounge-position and try to compare words.

/EvQt stym
1306

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Sat Mar 30, 2002 9:41pm
Subject: Re: Difference between y and o in Shavian
 
Ewout,

Thanks for your contribution.

"The difference between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding."

The message originated in an exchange between myself
and Bob Schmertiz who was helping me transcribe the
Gettysberg Address for my Shavian page. I thought
some of the problems we were having were of general
interest so I copied them to both the Shavian and the
Saundspel {phonology forum} discussion groups.

Let me invite anyone with a Shavian or Quickscript
page to link it thru the "saundspel" ring
http://p.webring.com/hub?ring=saundspel
Any page with information on the phonemic
transcription of English qualifies.

I think you are arguing that even GA speakers use y in
the yi /oi/ diphthong. [q] in Shavian.

The page we are trying to get right can be viewed at
the following URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Shaw-Alphabet/shaw-alfa.html

Steve

--- Ewout Stam <teraiten@y...> wrote:
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Re: [shavian] Difference between y and o in Shavian
>

> >I read this in the "Shavian" yahoogroup; not sure
> where it came from originally> >
> >> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@y...> wrote:

> >> > as an American, I don't see any difference
> between
> >> > 'y' and 'o', and would never use 'y' for any
> English
> >> > word to reflect my own pronunciation.
> >>
> >> > If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> >> > phonemically distinct in some dialect
> (presumably RP),
> >> > I'd be interested in knowing about that.
> >
> >One minimal triplet might be "bot", "baht" (Thai
> currency unit), and
> >"bought": the first is "bot" in RP, the second is
> "byt", and the third is
> >"bYt". Or "cot", "cart", and "cought" in RP (which
> is not rhotic); a
> literal
> >representation in Shavian would be "cot/cyt/cYt"
> >. (However, I use Shavian to
> >mark up what's basically a rhotic variant of RP, so
> it would instead be
> >"cot/cRt/cYt". Similar with "dot/dart/daughter".)

"Bother" and "father" is another example: "boHD" vs
"fyHD". Or "lost" and
"last": "lost" vs "lyst". Or "Pom" vs "palm": "pom"
vs "pym". Or "loft" vs
"laughed": "loft" vs "lyft". Or "foster" vs "faster":
"fostD" vs "fystD".
>
> These are excellent.
> Because of my Dutch background, I can hear the
> difference. The difference
> between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding. The tounge
> doesn't change position, all
> that changes is the form of the lips. The difference
> between 'o' and 'Y' is
> length, and a small change of tounge position. But
> only a very small change.
> The sound of 'Y' is the first sound of 'q' (oi), and
> then lengthened.

> /EvQt stym



=====


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1307

From: Michael Fitzgerald <mchlf@y...>
Date: Tue Apr 2, 2002 5:49pm
Subject: Written examples
 
Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked.

 

Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere?

 

thanks,

Michael

 

Git lUks lFk a lot v pIpal R wxkiN wiH wEjz v tFpiN in GSEvWn, but F wUd bI intarestid t sI egzAmpalz v hQ pIpal R handrFtiN it - hQ letaz R bIiN linkt.

 

GPUd it bI posibal t skAn sum egsAmpalz n Fha post Hem az bitmApz P on a websFt sumwX?

 

Tanks,

GmFkal

 

 
1308

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Tue Apr 2, 2002 6:37pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Michael,
 
This is a sensible idea. I have at present only one scanning of my own handwriting. It's accessible through the 'Advanced' page on my Shavian site - http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/. It is rather faint I'm afraid, but I scanned it years ago. I shall try to scan in some more soon.
 
To tell you the truth though, I haven't tried writing Shavian much for a long time. I only ever use it online these days.
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 5:49 PM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1309

From: usmaak <usmaak@a...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 0:44am
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked.  I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1310

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:09am
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked.  I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1311

From: usmaak <usmaak@a...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:14am
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters.  I agree that there are places where it would link nicely.  I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked.  I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1312

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 2:14am
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Kingsley Read at the end of Androcles: "Avoid linking letters unnaturally. There is no need to link letters at all. But it frequently happens that the end of one letter naturally runs into the beginning of another; and the alphabet is so designed that this cannot produce alternative readings."
 
So basically, if you really feel that joining two letters would be more comfortable than not joining them, go ahead. If it doesn't feel natural, don't do it.
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters.  I agree that there are places where it would link nicely.  I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked.  I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1313

From: usmaak <usmaak@a...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 2:39am
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Bingo Hugh, that's the exact quote I was looking for!  Thanks.  Now I will start playing around with joining them.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Kingsley Read at the end of Androcles: "Avoid linking letters unnaturally. There is no need to link letters at all. But it frequently happens that the end of one letter naturally runs into the beginning of another; and the alphabet is so designed that this cannot produce alternative readings."
 
So basically, if you really feel that joining two letters would be more comfortable than not joining them, go ahead. If it doesn't feel natural, don't do it.
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters.  I agree that there are places where it would link nicely.  I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked.  I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1315

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 0:23pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Have you got a scanner? Would you be able to find a way of scanning in what you write? It'd be interesting to compare handwriting styles of some people here.
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Bingo Hugh, that's the exact quote I was looking for!  Thanks.  Now I will start playing around with joining them.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Kingsley Read at the end of Androcles: "Avoid linking letters unnaturally. There is no need to link letters at all. But it frequently happens that the end of one letter naturally runs into the beginning of another; and the alphabet is so designed that this cannot produce alternative readings."
 
So basically, if you really feel that joining two letters would be more comfortable than not joining them, go ahead. If it doesn't feel natural, don't do it.
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters.  I agree that there are places where it would link nicely.  I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).
 
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked.  I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael


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1316

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Darn... all I ever do is write it... too much trouble to learn to type
it right now... just wait, in the future, we will be able to have
keyboards just in shavian...

love and peace,
--Star

--- Michael Fitzgerald <mchlf@y...> wrote:
> Hullo,It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing
> in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people
> are handwriting it - how letters are being linked.Would it be
> possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on
> a website somewhere?thanks,Michael
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Get personalised at My Yahoo!.
<HR>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'>It
looks
like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I
would be
interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how
letters are
being linked.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'><![if
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'>Would it be
possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a
website
somewhere?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'><![if
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'>thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'>Michael<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'><![if
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<h1><span lang=EN-IE>Git lUks lFk a lot v pIpal R wxkiN wiH wEjz v
tFpiN in
GSEvWn, but F wUd bI intarestid t sI egzAmpalz v hQ pIpal R handrFtiN
it - hQ
letaz R bIiN linkt.</span></h1>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'><![if
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<h1><span lang=EN-IE>GPUd it bI posibal t skAn sum egsAmpalz n Fha post
Hem az
bitmApz P on a websFt sumwX?</span></h1>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'><![if
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Ghoti;mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'>Tanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Ghoti;mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'>GmFkal<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-IE
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-IE'><![if
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>



=====
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-Frank Lebowitz

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1317

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:01pm
Subject: Shavian Forums have returned!
 
They're back!! At last!!
 
I've finally found an alternative host for the Shavian forums - our very own Philip Newton is now kindly hosting them on www.shavian.org. If we were anywhere near a pub I'd buy him a pint! :)
 
Simply follow the link from the shavian.org website to get there.
 
Hugh
1318

From: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:20pm
Subject: shavian.org
 
Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> I've finally found an alternative host for the Shavian forums -
> our very own Philip Newton is now kindly hosting them on
> www.shavian.org.

And I'd like to repeat the offer -- if someone wants a mail forwarding
address @shavian.org, drop me a line (they're free). And if you want to
deposit stuff under www.shavian.org, drop me a line as well, and we'll talk
about it. Shouldn't be a problem, especially if you don't need more than a
meg or so.

(Caveat: if too many people take me up on the offer then the space available
per person will have to shrink or I'm going to want to ask for contribution
to the hosting fees for extra space.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1319

From: Michael Fitzgerald <mchlf@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:06pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Hullo Hugh and others,
just worked my way through the handwritten version of
Shaw's test piece, and managed surprisingly well (I
thought!) considering I'd not read the piece before
and couldn't guess anything as I went along.

I came a bit unstuck on the 'OUt' sound as it looks a
bit like an 'h' when handwritten and I couldn't guess
how to resolve it; but I enjoyed the exercise so thank
you for providing it.

One query - in words like 'lingering' there's a 'g'
placed after the first 'ng' - is there a rule covering
this? Stress? (at the moment I would write it
'liNriN' myself).

I do have a scanner at home so I might try providing a
sample myself at some stage.

all the best,
Michael


--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote: >
Have you got a scanner? Would you be able to find a
> way of scanning in what you write? It'd be
> interesting to compare handwriting styles of some
> people here.
>


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1320

From: Michael Fitzgerald <mchlf@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:13pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Hullo Star,

I know what you mean... a Shavian keyboard would be a
BIG help - maybe I'll 'doctor' an old one at home -
the effort in going 'the letter on _that_ key means
_that_ symbol, only remember to make it a capital'
means that typing in Shavian is very slow for me,
especially when I'm still starting with the script.

slán,

Michael


--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote: >
Darn... all I ever do is write it... too much
> trouble to learn to type
> it right now... just wait, in the future, we will be
> able to have
> keyboards just in shavian...
>
> love and peace,
> --Star


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1321

From: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
Michael Fitzgerald wrote:
> One query - in words like 'lingering' there's a 'g'
> placed after the first 'ng' - is there a rule covering
> this? Stress? (at the moment I would write it
> 'liNriN' myself).

A question for you: do you pronounce the two words "singer" (person who
sings) and "finger" (on your hand) exactly the same except for the first
letter?

For me, "singer" is "siND" in Shavian while "finger" is "fiNgD" -- that is,
"finger" is pronounce f-i-ng-g-e-r while "singer" is s-i-ng-e-r. Do you hear
the difference?

"Linger", for me, goes with "finger" since I pronounce a "g" after the "ng"
sound; "ringer" would go with "singer". And "singing" I would write "siNiN".

"liNriN" would evoke to me a Roman spelling like "ling-ring" or so. Do you
not pronounce it "ling-a-ring" (like "ring-a-ring of roses") and not
"ling-ge-ring"? I would probably spell the word "liNgariN" in Shavian.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
1322

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:50pm
Subject: Re: Shavian Forums have returned!
 
I tried signing up for it, but it wouldn't let me. It was pretending to
let me regester, but to no avail...

--star

--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> They're back!! At last!!
>
> I've finally found an alternative host for the Shavian forums - our
> very own Philip Newton is now kindly hosting them on www.shavian.org.
> If we were anywhere near a pub I'd buy him a pint! :)
>
> Simply follow the link from the shavian.org website to get there.
>
> Hugh
>


=====
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1323

From: Robert McBroom <info@o...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:30pm
Subject: Re: Difference between y and o in Shavian
 
As a meager contribution to these ongoing questions of how things sound, or how sounds differ, I am announcing my humble addition to the brM-ha-ha.

I have uploaded to the Yahoo Shavian group's archive sound  files of English and American vowels.   There are also charts keyed to the sound files, with IPA symbols. (I have had these so long, I forget where they came from.)

Maybe these can serve as a yardstick by which we can measure our sound production, and an exercise where we can better train our "kulcx-bQnd Cz."





Ewout,

Thanks for your contribution.

"The difference between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding."

The message originated in an exchange between myself
and Bob Schmertiz who was helping me transcribe the
Gettysberg Address for my Shavian page.  I thought
some of the problems we were having were of general
interest so I copied them to both the Shavian and the
Saundspel {phonology forum} discussion groups.

Let me invite anyone with a Shavian or Quickscript
page to link it thru the "saundspel" ring
http://p.webring.com/hub?ring=saundspel
Any page with information on the phonemic
transcription of English qualifies.

I think you are arguing that even GA speakers use y in
the yi /oi/ diphthong. [q] in Shavian.

The page we are trying to get right can be viewed at
the following URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Shaw-Alphabet/shaw-alfa.html
Steve

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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
  /wUdstak  /nV /jDk

"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
 evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
                   - /JPJ /bxnRd /SY
1324

From: Michael Fitzgerald <mchlf@y...>
Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Written examples
 
--- "Newton, Philip" <philip.newton@d...>
wrote: "liNriN" would evoke to me a Roman spelling
like
> "ling-ring" or so. Do you
> not pronounce it "ling-a-ring" (like "ring-a-ring of
> roses") and not
> "ling-ge-ring"? I would probably spell the word
> "liNgariN" in Shavian.

Hi Philip,
I do hear the difference that you're pointing out here
- my own diction isn't really consistent though. My
parents would be so disapointed :-(
If I'm talking to myself, (which I do when I write
Shavian - well, my tongue tends to wander around
rehearsing the sounds), I do say "liNriN" (ling-ring);
but if I'm was speaking in public or reading out loud,
the "a" does creep in and I come out with "liNgariN" -
probably because of the extra air I'm playing with.

My vowel sounds would probably be more defined too,
there's a worrying amount of "a" in everything I
write!

cheers,
Michael

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1326

From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Sat Apr 6, 2002 9:31pm
Subject: Re: shavian.org
 
On 6 Apr 02, at 10:44, usmaak wrote:

> I'd like one of those addresses.

Which one? usmaak@s...? Something else? And where do you want
the address to forward mail to?

> BTW, are you the other member on my now defunct Shavian board? I
> noticed that the webpage listed in the member profile of pne was
> http://shavian.org.

Yes; I'm pne.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
1328

From: Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 11:10pm
Subject: Two queries
 
Hi,

First of all, does anyone know what happened to Phil Driscoll? His
email bounces and his web site is no longer at the address he previously
indicated.

Secondly, have Hugh's boards changed? I just joined and there are
2 QuickScript boards and only one Shavian one. And I seem to recall
seeing about 4 or 5 Shavian boards before (and not having to logon to
see their names).

--Scott
1329

From: usmaak <usmaak@a...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:55am
Subject: Re: Two queries
 
Yes, they have completely changed.  They are using the newest Ikonboard, which is version 3.0.2.  Plus, there are Quickscript forums added, which is something folks have wanted to see for awhile.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:10 PM
Subject: [shavian] Two queries

Hi,

      First of all, does anyone know what happened to Phil Driscoll?  His
email bounces and his web site is no longer at the address he previously
indicated.

      Secondly, have Hugh's boards changed?  I just joined and there are
2 QuickScript boards and only one Shavian one.  And I seem to recall
seeing about 4 or 5 Shavian boards before (and not having to logon to
see their names).

--Scott



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
1330

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@u...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:03am
Subject: Re: Two queries
 
Hi Scott,
 
I'll answer your questions in reverse order, I think. Yes, my boards have changed - I have had to restart them, as the code for the old boards had become corrupted when I moved it over to the new webspace. The new boards to be found at http://www.shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi are using the newer, up-to-date version of the message board software I was using before. I have not finished creating forums yet, this will come with time. I am currently working with Scott Kilbourn (Usmaak) to make the forums display correctly in Shavian typefaces. I will let everyone know when the updates are complete.
 
As for Phillip Driscoll, I've no idea where he's gone. His webspace has indeed vanished - I've tried searching for it on Google - no sign of it. If you still want to see what WAS his site, follow this link:
You can still get his fonts from this address.
 
Hugh Birkenhead
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:10 PM
Subject: [shavian] Two queries

Hi,

      First of all, does anyone know what happened to Phil Driscoll?  His
email bounces and his web site is no longer at the address he previously
indicated.

      Secondly, have Hugh's boards changed?  I just joined and there are
2 QuickScript boards and only one Shavian one.  And I seem to recall
seeing about 4 or 5 Shavian boards before (and not having to logon to
see their names).

--Scott



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
1331

From: Scott Harrison <scott_harrison@a...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:55am
Subject: Re: Two queries
 
Hugh,

The reason I wanted to contact Phil Driscoll is because I wanted to
know whether he could add to his fonts by making Unicode versions of all
his fonts, and also put the Shavian letters into the proper places with
regard to the latest proposal for them to be introduced into the Unicode
specification permanently. If this were done, then we would have a much
better chance of having the Unicode documents we create today just work
when Shavian is finally adopted into Unicode.

--Scott

On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:03 , Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

> Hi Scott,
>  
> I'll answer your questions in reverse order, I think. Yes, my boards
> have changed - I have had to restart them, as the code for the old
> boards had become corrupted when I moved it over to the new webspace.
> The new boards to be found at
> http://www.shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi are using
> the newer, up-to-date version of the message board software I was using
> before. I have not finished creating forums yet, this will come with
> time. I am currently working with Scott Kilbourn (Usmaak) to make the
> forums display correctly in Shavian typefaces. I will let everyone know
> when the updates are complete.
>  
> As for Phillip Driscoll, I've no idea where he's gone. His webspace has
> indeed vanished - I've tried searching for it on Google - no sign of
> it. If you still want to see what WAS his site, follow this link:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20010424095939/www2.c4systm.com/~phild/
> You can still get his fonts from this address.
>  
> Hugh Birkenhead
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott Harrison
> To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:10 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Two queries
>
> Hi,
>
>       First of all, does anyone know what happened to Phil Driscoll? 
> His
> email bounces and his web site is no longer at the address he previously
> indicated.
>
>       Secondly, have Hugh's boards changed?  I just joined and there are
> 2 QuickScript boards and only one Shavian one.  And I seem to recall
> seeing about 4 or 5 Shavian boards before (and not having to logon to
> see their names).
>
> --Scott
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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