|
|
|
| 1993 |
From: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 0:34am
Subject: Re: Err and lol
|
| |
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:00:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...> Subject:
Self-serving Texans call opponents "evil."
To: opinion@s...
The theme song of President Bush's Iraq war seems to
be "The Yellow Rose Of Texas," because I've heard it a
lot, lately. It was also a Confederate marching song
during the Civil War.
It was supposedly a tribute to Emily Morgan, a slave
whose loyalty to her master helped to prolong slavery.
She helped the Texans defeat the Mexicans, who would
have freed her people in 1835.
In 1829, Texas was part of Mexico, and its main source
of income was cotton, raised by slaves. My
encyclopedia says Texans were "angered" when Mexico
outlawed slavery that year. They evaded that law until
1835, when Mexico sent an army against them. The
Mexicans were defeated.
The Texans portrayed that war as one against an "evil"
Mexican ruler, Santa Anna, but their own absolute
tyranny over the slaves was more cruel. Today's
Texans, Bush and Cheney, likewise portray their war as
one against "evil" Saddam Hussein, to distract
attention from their own brutal intentions toward
Iraq's people and the Palestinians.
My Canadian-born great-grandfather Jacob Schaub came
to the US in 1860 and settled at Decorah, Iowa. While
still a Canadian citizen, he served in the Union Army
in the Civil War.
My cousin Jann Haugen, of Fargo, North Dakota, a
great-granddaughter of Jacob Schaub, informed me that
he also brought back freed slaves to Decorah, perhaps
en route to Canada. She supposes that he worked with
the Underground Railroad.
Gerald Baker
624 W. 8th St., Cedar Falls, Iowa
--- Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> gerald baker wrote:
> > Please let me out of this group. It's wasting my
> > meager computer time this week. Gerald Baker
>
> I'm a member of a group that doesn't normally get
> that kind of response
> until it's getting more than 50 postings a day!
> I've seen it at more
> than 100 a day during a hot discussion.
>
> If you enjoy a topic, enjoy it. If not,
> unsubscribe.
> shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 1994 |
From: Joe <allegrox_2000@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:55am
Subject: Re: Spelling reform in simple stages
|
| |
After writing the words you listed in T.O., IPA, and in Shavian, I
still think that my rule explains all of them perfectly. If the l is
followed by a vowel sound, then it is not syllabic. If the l is not
followed by a vowel sound (including in final position), then it is
syllabic. The only case I can think of where there might be a
distinction is in the environment of consonant + l + vowel. This
occurs because, in this position, the vowel before the l is seperate
from it. But perhaps I just need more examples.
-AllegroX
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Joe
>
> Just to clarify a few of your points. You have made some over-
> generalizations.
> First, I think you are more or less correct in the rule that
> If an l is followed by a consonant, it is generally syllabic
> (but not necessarily in all cases), and before a vowel it is not.
> However, that rule applys more to the Roman Alphabet, than the Shaw
> Alphabet. It works, because in the Roman Alphabet it is common to
> double the L, in order to indicate a short vowel or syllabic L.
> For example, Ellen, Elaine, Ilene, Alvin, Earl, tail, elephant,
> elavator, electric.
> The Shaw Alphabet does not have the luxury of inserting null
letters,
> to indicate an alternate pronunciation.
> Also L followed by an "e" or an L at the end of a word is
frequently
> syllabic. But I really don't want to have to learn all the I before
E
> except after C rules that make the Roman Alphabet such a headache.
> I think the situation of when "r" is syllabic is much more complex
> than "l".
> Also most Non-Rhotic English speakers do pronounce the "r" after a
> vowel at the end word, if the next word begins with a vowel.
> By the way,
> I am glad I speak a Rhotic form of English, so I don't have to
spell
> out different variants of the same word, based on context.
> The r diagraphs are a nice way to isolate this speach variation.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> > The syllabic l differs from a schwer in that it is not a vowel,
but
> a
> > a glide from a schwa to the l consonant. For that reason, I
> usually
> > spell it as a schwa followed by an l. The IPA indicates a
> syllabic
> > l by placing a superscript schwa before it. But I'm never
certain
> > how to deal with either of these sounds. It seems to me that
when
> an
> > l is followed by a consonant, it is generally syllabic (but not
> > necessarily in all cases), and before a vowel it is not. For the
> > most part, at least, this is decided by position.
> > I wonder if, perhaps, r sounds could be treated the same
way.
> > If you ask an average American whether a final r is a consonant
or
> a
> > vowel, I'd wager that almost everone would think of it as a
> > consonant, even though it isn't really. So, why can't we just
use
> r
> > for a syllabic r as well? In this case, I would spell the
> > word "roar" as "rOr." I would then spell the word "ear"
as "Ir."
> > Readers would know that the r in "array" is not syllabic because
> it's
> > followed by a vowel. The r in "board" is syllabic because it is
> not
> > followed by a vowel. Since most Americans don't distinguish
> between
> > them, we can hardly consider them seperate phonemes. These are
> just
> > different realizations of the same phoneme (it is hardly uncommon
> for
> > a single phoneme to come out differently in different
> environments).
> > Non-rhotic accents like British, however, are an entirely
different
> > matter. The syllabic r in these accents can just be left out
since
> > it isn't pronounced.
> >
> > -Joe
> >
> >
|
|
| 1995 |
From: Joe <allegrox_2000@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:26am
Subject: Re: Err and lol
|
| |
You're right. I tried out your word pairs and found that
free/furry, through/thorough, fro/furrow, kree/curry are
distinguished only by their syllabic Rs. Written in Shavian, these
differ in only one letter. Merging the phonemes then, would make
them identical. They don't all hold, though. A few are
distinguished in other ways. However, they are close enough to be
confusing, which I think merits maintaining the distinction, anyway.
Thanks for bringing up the point. I thought I had read your
earlier message, but I aparrantly missed or forgot it. I am a bit
forgetful sometimes. But I think the syllabic l merger still works,
at least. If they were significantly different, I think Read would
have included an extra letter for that, too.
So it seems this is what we've got so far (though I'm not
claiming a consesus -- I haven't counted): l/syllabic l are the same
phoneme; syllabic r is different from sub-syllabic r, and is at least
one unique phoneme (or two for some speakers). Does that sound right?
-AllegroX
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> Joe wrote:
> > The syllabic l differs from a schwer in that it is not a vowel,
but a
> > a glide from a schwa to the l consonant. For that reason, I
usually
> > spell it as a schwa followed by an l. The IPA indicates a
syllabic
> > l by placing a superscript schwa before it. But I'm never
certain
> > how to deal with either of these sounds. It seems to me that
when an
> > l is followed by a consonant, it is generally syllabic (but not
> > necessarily in all cases), and before a vowel it is not. For the
> > most part, at least, this is decided by position.
>
> The whole idea of the shavian alphabet is to only write phonemes.
So,
> is the ado before the lol a phoneme? Would it make a difference in
> sense if the ado were left off? I tend to think there's no
phonemic
> difference between syllabic lol and non-syllabic lol, so it should
work
> just fine to spell it without any Ado. Of course, there may be an
> accent or dialect that needs an ado before syllabic Lol. But I
kind of
> doubt it.
>
> > I wonder if, perhaps, r sounds could be treated the same
way.
> > If you ask an average American whether a final r is a consonant
or a
> > vowel, I'd wager that almost everone would think of it as a
> > consonant, even though it isn't really. So, why can't we just
use r
> > for a syllabic r as well? In this case, I would spell the
> > word "roar" as "rOr." I would then spell the word "ear"
as "Ir."
> > Readers would know that the r in "array" is not syllabic because
it's
> > followed by a vowel. The r in "board" is syllabic because it is
not
> > followed by a vowel. Since most Americans don't distinguish
between
> > them, we can hardly consider them seperate phonemes. These are
just
> > different realizations of the same phoneme (it is hardly uncommon
for
> > a single phoneme to come out differently in different
environments).
> > Non-rhotic accents like British, however, are an entirely
different
> > matter. The syllabic r in these accents can just be left out
since
> > it isn't pronounced.
> >
> > -Joe
>
> Maybe you didn't read the message I posted earlier. The syllabic
> err/array sound is a separate phoneme from the non-syllabic roar
and the
> diphthongs are/or/air/ear. For instance, roar/rower, free/furry,
> throw/thorough, fro/furrow, Kree/curry. So you can't merge roar
with
> err/array.
>
> --
> Ethan
|
|
| 1996 |
From:  Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:08am
Subject: Re: Back to the Cot/Caught Merger
|
| |
|
It's all very well say 'keep it for
those who use it' but this will only lead to a multi-tiered Shavian
system. The 'ah'/'on' distinction just isn't made by the
General American dialect, according to all phone tables I can see,
including that used in the Merriam Webster dictionary. This means that
the letter cannot really be 'understood' - it must just be taught; e.g.
"you may not understand why you have to use 'ah' instead of 'on' in
this case but trust us, you must do it".
General American is apparently
the majority dialect throughout the world and should not be
disadvantaged by the Shaw Alphabet. Removing the 'on' phoneme will not
disadvantage Brit-Eng speakers unnecessarily as might be supposed: if
the 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed (e.g.
gr[æ]ss not gr[a:]ss), there will be VERY few, if any, problems telling
when the 'ah' letter represents the 'ah' or 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
This has the added bonus of allowing Shavian spelling to be more
synchronised across the Atlantic.
I think that the ideal of 'spell how
you speak' is nice, but it is not the way forward. Shavian cannot cater
for everybody and retain its integrity. If it had a character for every
phoneme and allophone used in every dialect of English, it would remain
a linguistic oddity with little practical use. The alphabet has a great
deal of responsibility to make sure that conflicting spellings are
automatically avoided. At present this does not happen by there being
redundant and ambiguous letters.
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Back to the Cot/Caught Merger
Star Raven wrote:
> I must agree with Ethan here, As I have found that the alphabet works,
> I see only that it needs to be used and exposed to the public view. As
> an American, I do not have a problem with err-urge/array nor do i have
> a problem with up/ado. These are questions to be sure, but the simple
> answer is the best.
>
> /Up/ is for a stressed syllable, /ado/ is a schwa, and by it's nature,
> unstressed. In cases of syllabic r, l, and d, I tend to use these
> alone, since they make the sound all by themselves. tunnel:
> Tot-up-nun-lol. This decreases the amount of needed letters making
> writing shorter, but I believe that by no means should any letter be
> "dropped" to help one group or another, as you will find those inside
> the group that will feel slighted or misrepresented.
>
> Soapbox dismounted, Whip removed from vicinity of dead horse,
> --Star
I say, keep all the letters in the alphabet and give everybody the
opportunity to use them all. Providing a list or chart of example words
would be good for making it easier for others to learn the alphabet.
And above all, encourage people to use it!
Crrrack! I'm done, too.
--
Ethan
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| 1997 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:04am
Subject: Re: Unsubscribing (was Err and lol)
|
| |
On 17 Mar 2003 at 16:25, gerald baker wrote:
> I went to that address and couldn't see a way to get
> out of this group. I don't have all day to fool around
> with that stuff. Just let me out. GB
There's nothing anyone of us can do about it.
If sending email to shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com doesn't work,
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/ doesn't show that you are a
member ("You are a member of this group" in the "Membership" box at the
right) and doesn't have a "Leave Group" link that you can click on,
then you could try emailing the list owner at
shavian-owner@yahoogroups.com .
Sending emails to the list, however, isn't going to change anything.
(You have to send email to shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com from the
address that you used to subscribe to the list. If you are unsure which
address that was -- for example, if you use multiple email addresses
forwarding to the same place --, look in the headers of the email for a
header "X-eGroups-Return:" or "Return-Path:". This should be of the
form "sentto-[a bunch of numbers]-youremail=email.domain.com@returns.
groups.yahoo.com". Replace the "=" by "@" and you have
"youremail@e..." which is the address you are subscribed
with. Since you appear to be using Yahoo! Mail, you'll have to ask them
how to show the full headers of an email message, or the raw message
source, or whatever they call it, if they are not ordinarily
displayed.)
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 1998 |
From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:43am
Subject: Err and lol
|
| |
Hi Joe
Thanks for seeing my point. By having a Shaw Letter for the syllabic R,
in the International Shaw Alphabet, we actually resolve 2 problems.
First, we provide a excellent method to differentiate, all of those minimal
pair words you describe below.
Second and perhaps more importantly, it allows to unambiguously write all
the other r-vowel sounds.
(such as: ar, or, ir, air, our, ire, foyer, layer, pier, lower)
We just follow the appropriate vowel with the syllabic "R" and there is no
confusion where the syllable boundary is.
That is to say that with a syllabic "r", the syllable ends after the "r".
Whereas a regular "r" would start a syllable, or be part of a consonant
pair or triple starting a syllable.
The syllabic L as you point out is quite bit less ambiguous.
I believe that we should leave off the addition of new letters at this
point until after we have tallied up all the Shaw letters in the American
subset of the Shaw Alphabet. (i.e. International Shaw Alphabet)
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. We just can't get away from array/urge Shaw letter choice.
_______________attached__________________
At 03:26 AM 3/18/03 +0000, you wrote:
> You're right. I tried out your word pairs and found that
>free/furry, throw/through/thorough, fro/furrow, kree/curry are
>distinguished only by their syllabic Rs. Written in Shavian, these
>differ in only one letter. Merging the phonemes then, would make
>them identical. They don't all hold, though. A few are
>distinguished in other ways. However, they are close enough to be
>confusing, which I think merits maintaining the distinction, anyway.
> Thanks for bringing up the point. I thought I had read your
>earlier message, but I aparrantly missed or forgot it. I am a bit
>forgetful sometimes. But I think the syllabic l merger still works,
>at least. If they were significantly different, I think Read would
>have included an extra letter for that, too.
> So it seems this is what we've got so far (though I'm not
>claiming a consesus -- I haven't counted): l/syllabic l are the same
>phoneme; syllabic r is different from sub-syllabic r, and is at least
>one unique phoneme (or two for some speakers). Does that sound right?
>
>-AllegroX
>
>--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> > Joe wrote:
> > > The syllabic l differs from a schwer in that it is not a vowel,
>but a
> > > a glide from a schwa to the l consonant. For that reason, I
>usually
> > > spell it as a schwa followed by an l. The IPA indicates a
>syllabic
> > > l by placing a superscript schwa before it. But I'm never
>certain
> > > how to deal with either of these sounds. It seems to me that
>when an
> > > l is followed by a consonant, it is generally syllabic (but not
> > > necessarily in all cases), and before a vowel it is not. For the
> > > most part, at least, this is decided by position.
> >
> > The whole idea of the shavian alphabet is to only write phonemes.
>So,
> > is the ado before the lol a phoneme? Would it make a difference in
> > sense if the ado were left off? I tend to think there's no
>phonemic
> > difference between syllabic lol and non-syllabic lol, so it should
>work
> > just fine to spell it without any Ado. Of course, there may be an
> > accent or dialect that needs an ado before syllabic Lol. But I
>kind of
> > doubt it.
> >
> > > I wonder if, perhaps, r sounds could be treated the same
>way.
> > > If you ask an average American whether a final r is a consonant
>or a
> > > vowel, I'd wager that almost everone would think of it as a
> > > consonant, even though it isn't really. So, why can't we just
>use r
> > > for a syllabic r as well? In this case, I would spell the
> > > word "roar" as "rOr." I would then spell the word "ear"
>as "Ir."
> > > Readers would know that the r in "array" is not syllabic because
>it's
> > > followed by a vowel. The r in "board" is syllabic because it is
>not
> > > followed by a vowel. Since most Americans don't distinguish
>between
> > > them, we can hardly consider them seperate phonemes. These are
>just
> > > different realizations of the same phoneme (it is hardly uncommon
>for
> > > a single phoneme to come out differently in different
>environments).
> > > Non-rhotic accents like British, however, are an entirely
>different
> > > matter. The syllabic r in these accents can just be left out
>since
> > > it isn't pronounced.
> > >
> > > -Joe
> >
> > Maybe you didn't read the message I posted earlier. The syllabic
> > err/array sound is a separate phoneme from the non-syllabic roar
>and the
> > diphthongs are/or/air/ear. For instance, roar/rower, free/furry,
> > throw/thorough, fro/furrow, Kree/curry. So you can't merge roar
>with
> > err/array.
> >
> > --
> > Ethan
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
| 1999 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:06am
Subject: How to unsubscribe from Yahoo lists
|
| |
gerald baker wrote:
> I went to that address and couldn't see a way to get
> out of this group. I don't have all day to fool around
> with that stuff. Just let me out. GB
Okay, here's how it works. Send a blank email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
After you send that email, you will get an automatic reply back, asking
you to confirm your wish to unsubscribe. Reply to that message, by
clicking the reply button in your email program. After you send a blank
reply to the message, you will be unsubscribed from the list. That's
all there is to it. But remember, if you don't confirm your wish to
unsubscribe, you will not be unsubscribed.
If you don't have all day, then do it some other day when you have the
time and patience to do it. Don't take out your frustration on us
because you are receiving emails from a list you signed up with! This
is meant to be a self-service list.
--
Ethan
|
|
| 2000 |
From: rubik67 <rubik67@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:17am
Subject: Re: Back to the Cot/Caught Merger
|
| |
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> English speakers have at most three unstressed syllable vowel
contrasts: handed/candid/candied (lack the handed/candid contrast).
How about radio? L8r.
|
|
| 2001 |
From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:15am
Subject: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Hi Hugh
As usual, I completely agree with your objectives for the International
Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize unnecessarily/redundant
letters, for people writing English based on a General American English
pronunciation.
I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme should be the first step. And
as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng speakers; if the
'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed (e.g. gr[æ]ss
not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any, comprehension problems if
the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal pairs in American English
pronunciation, it should be removed in the interest of clarity of
communication/writing.
The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored for Americans to ensure
that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as possible, by removing
redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General American use.
Regards, Paul V.
______________________attached_________________
At 04:08 AM 3/18/03 +0000, you wrote:
>It's all very well say 'keep it for those who use it' but this will only
>lead to a multi-tiered Shavian system. The 'ah'/'on' distinction just
>isn't made by the General American dialect, according to all phone tables
>I can see, including that used in the Merriam Webster dictionary. This
>means that the letter cannot really be 'understood' - it must just be
>taught; e.g. "you may not understand why you have to use 'ah' instead of
>'on' in this case but trust us, you must do it".
>
>General American is apparently the majority dialect throughout the world
>and should not be disadvantaged by the Shaw Alphabet. Removing the 'on'
>phoneme will not disadvantage Brit-Eng speakers unnecessarily as might be
>supposed: if the 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are
>observed (e.g. gr[æ]ss not gr[a:]ss), there will be VERY few, if any,
>problems telling when the 'ah' letter represents the 'ah' or 'on' sound in
>Brit-Eng. This has the added bonus of allowing Shavian spelling to be more
>synchronised across the Atlantic.
>
>I think that the ideal of 'spell how you speak' is nice, but it is not the
>way forward. Shavian cannot cater for everybody and retain its integrity.
>If it had a character for every phoneme and allophone used in every
>dialect of English, it would remain a linguistic oddity with little
>practical use. The alphabet has a great deal of responsibility to make
>sure that conflicting spellings are automatically avoided. At present this
>does not happen by there being redundant and ambiguous letters.
>
>Hugh B
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:ethanl@30below.com>Ethan
>To: <mailto:shavian@yahoogroups.com>shavian@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:19 PM
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Back to the Cot/Caught Merger
>
>Star Raven wrote:
> > I must agree with Ethan here, As I have found that the alphabet works,
> > I see only that it needs to be used and exposed to the public view. As
> > an American, I do not have a problem with err-urge/array nor do i have
> > a problem with up/ado. These are questions to be sure, but the simple
> > answer is the best.
> >
> > /Up/ is for a stressed syllable, /ado/ is a schwa, and by it's nature,
> > unstressed. In cases of syllabic r, l, and d, I tend to use these
> > alone, since they make the sound all by themselves. tunnel:
> > Tot-up-nun-lol. This decreases the amount of needed letters making
> > writing shorter, but I believe that by no means should any letter be
> > "dropped" to help one group or another, as you will find those inside
> > the group that will feel slighted or misrepresented.
> >
> > Soapbox dismounted, Whip removed from vicinity of dead horse,
> > --Star
>
>I say, keep all the letters in the alphabet and give everybody the
>opportunity to use them all. Providing a list or chart of example words
>would be good for making it easier for others to learn the alphabet.
>And above all, encourage people to use it!
>
>Crrrack! I'm done, too.
>
>--
>Ethan
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1430287/R=2/id=noscript/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405>a67e64.jpg
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| Attachment: (image/jpeg) a67f18.jpg [not stored] |
|
| 2002 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:16am
Subject: Re: Err and lol
|
| |
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:43 AM
Subject: [shavian] Err and lol
P.S. We just can't get away from array/urge Shaw letter choice.
Another reason not to have a difference. There may be phonetic
subtlety to back it up, in Gen-Am at least, but it's not essential to
comprehension. It just has the potential to allow too many spelling
differences between Brit- and US-Eng, which we should be trying to
avoid.
Hugh B |
|
|
| 2003 |
From: Craig Butz <shavian@w...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:51pm
Subject: Re: Err and lol
|
| |
In a previous episode, shavian@yahoogroups.com said:
> I tried out your word pairs and found that
> free/furry, through/thorough, fro/furrow, kree/curry are
> distinguished only by their syllabic Rs.
Perhaps not. For emphasis, one can pronounce 'free' with two syllables, but
the accent would be on the second syllable, whereas your two-syllable
examples clearly have the accent on the first syllable. That would be a
difference between array and err. However, a perfect example (to my ears
anyway) of the difference between unstressed syllabic, and non-syllabic R is
Thoreau/throw. Except, now that I say them aloud, they seem nearly
identical. Hmm.
Craig
|
|
| 2004 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:51pm
Subject: Re: Unsubscribing (was Err and lol)
|
| |
|
Sending email to the group owner won't help anything I'm afraid.
Lionel Ghoti (alias Leon Robbins, I
believe), the creator and still current moderator of this
group, has vanished without a trace since January 2000.
There is no way this list can be
administered without him. I will have to have a chat with Yahoo Groups
about getting ownership transferred to one or a few of us.
I wonder where he's gone... I hope nothing bad has happened...
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Unsubscribing (was Err and lol)
On 17 Mar 2003 at 16:25, gerald baker wrote:
> I went to that address and couldn't see a way to get
> out of this group. I don't have all day to fool around
> with that stuff. Just let me out. GB
There's nothing anyone of us can do about it.
If sending email to shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com doesn't work,
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/ doesn't show that you are a
member ("You are a member of this group" in the "Membership" box at the
right) and doesn't have a "Leave Group" link that you can click on,
then you could try emailing the list owner at
shavian-owner@yahoogroups.com .
Sending emails to the list, however, isn't going to change anything.
(You have to send email to shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com from the
address that you used to subscribe to the list. If you are unsure which
address that was -- for example, if you use multiple email addresses
forwarding to the same place --, look in the headers of the email for a
header "X-eGroups-Return:" or "Return-Path:". This should be of the
form "sentto-[a bunch of numbers]-youremail=email.domain.com@returns.
groups.yahoo.com". Replace the "=" by "@" and you have
"youremail@email.comain.com" which is the address you are subscribed
with. Since you appear to be using Yahoo! Mail, you'll have to ask them
how to show the full headers of an email message, or the raw message
source, or whatever they call it, if they are not ordinarily
displayed.)
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| 2005 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:57pm
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to create a fiting ISA,
will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
--Star
--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Hugh
> As usual, I completely agree with your objectives for the
> International
> Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> unnecessarily/redundant
> letters, for people writing English based on a General American
> English
> pronunciation.
>
> I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme should be the first
> step. And
> as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng speakers; if the
> 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed (e.g.
> gr[æ]ss
> not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any, comprehension problems
> if
> the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
> And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal pairs in American
> English
> pronunciation, it should be removed in the interest of clarity of
> communication/writing.
>
> The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored for Americans to
> ensure
> that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as possible, by
> removing
> redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General American use.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2006 |
From: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 0:55am
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...> Subject:
One person stopped a tank in China, but not in our
"ally," Israel.
The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who was run
> over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine, was an
evil
> deed similar to the killing of the of the
anti-slavery
> activist John Brown, just before the Civil War.
>
> Brown's death was commemorated in the song "John
> Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for the
song
> "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor song
> "Solidarity Forever."
>
> I think there shoulld be a new version which goes,
>
> "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in the grave,
> Her soul goes marching on."
>
> Gerald Baker
> >
--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to
> create a fiting ISA,
> will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
>
> --Star
>
> --- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Hugh
> > As usual, I completely agree with your
> objectives for the
> > International
> > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > unnecessarily/redundant
> > letters, for people writing English based on a
> General American
> > English
> > pronunciation.
> >
> > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme
> should be the first
> > step. And
> > as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng
> speakers; if the
> > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are
> observed (e.g.
> > gr[æ]ss
> > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any,
> comprehension problems
> > if
> > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in
> Brit-Eng.
> > And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal
> pairs in American
> > English
> > pronunciation, it should be removed in the
> interest of clarity of
> > communication/writing.
> >
> > The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored
> for Americans to
> > ensure
> > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as
> possible, by
> > removing
> > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General
> American use.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
>
>
> =====
> "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back
> to the monster killing...Hello!"
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2007 |
From: <embryomystic@c...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:07am
Subject: RE: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Didn't you say you wanted to quit?
P.S. OFF-TOPIC.
> ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International Shaw Alphabet Subset
> ** Original Sender: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
> ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:08 -0500 (EST)
> ** Original Message follows...
>
> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
> From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...> Subject:
> One person stopped a tank in China, but not in our
> "ally," Israel.
>
> The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who was run
> > over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine, was an
> evil
> > deed similar to the killing of the of the
> anti-slavery
> > activist John Brown, just before the Civil War.
> >
> > Brown's death was commemorated in the song "John
> > Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for the
> song
> > "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor song
> > "Solidarity Forever."
> >
> > I think there shoulld be a new version which goes,
> >
> > "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in the grave,
> > Her soul goes marching on."
> >
> > Gerald Baker
> > >
>
>
>
> --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to
> > create a fiting ISA,
> > will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > Hi Hugh
> > > As usual, I completely agree with your
> > objectives for the
> > > International
> > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > letters, for people writing English based on a
> > General American
> > > English
> > > pronunciation.
> > >
> > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme
> > should be the first
> > > step. And
> > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng
> > speakers; if the
> > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are
> > observed (e.g.
> > > gr[æ]ss
> > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any,
> > comprehension problems
> > > if
> > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in
> > Brit-Eng.
> > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal
> > pairs in American
> > > English
> > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the
> > interest of clarity of
> > > communication/writing.
> > >
> > > The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored
> > for Americans to
> > > ensure
> > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as
> > possible, by
> > > removing
> > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General
> > American use.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back
> > to the monster killing...Hello!"
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> > live on your desktop!
> > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
>
---
A tiger can smile
A snake will say it loves you
Lies make us evil
|
|
| 2008 |
From: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:07am
Subject: RE: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to get
all this stuff that keeps coming.
--- embryomystic@c... wrote:
> Didn't you say you wanted to quit?
>
> P.S. OFF-TOPIC.
>
>
> > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International
> Shaw Alphabet Subset
> > ** Original Sender: gerald baker
> <glbaker50613@y...>
> > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:08 -0500
> (EST)
>
> > ** Original Message follows...
>
> >
> > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
> > From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...>
> Subject:
> > One person stopped a tank in China, but not in our
> > "ally," Israel.
> >
> > The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who was
> run
> > > over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine, was
> an
> > evil
> > > deed similar to the killing of the of the
> > anti-slavery
> > > activist John Brown, just before the Civil War.
> > >
> > > Brown's death was commemorated in the song "John
> > > Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for the
> > song
> > > "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor song
> > > "Solidarity Forever."
> > >
> > > I think there shoulld be a new version which
> goes,
> > >
> > > "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in the
> grave,
> > > Her soul goes marching on."
> > >
> > > Gerald Baker
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > > Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to
> > > create a fiting ISA,
> > > will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> > >
> > > --Star
> > >
> > > --- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Hugh
> > > > As usual, I completely agree with your
> > > objectives for the
> > > > International
> > > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
>
> > > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > > letters, for people writing English based on a
> > > General American
> > > > English
> > > > pronunciation.
> > > >
> > > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme
> > > should be the first
> > > > step. And
> > > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to
> Brit-Eng
> > > speakers; if the
> > > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash'
> are
> > > observed (e.g.
> > > > gr[æ]ss
> > > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any,
> > > comprehension problems
> > > > if
> > > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound
> in
> > > Brit-Eng.
> > > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes
> minimal
> > > pairs in American
> > > > English
> > > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the
> > > interest of clarity of
> > > > communication/writing.
> > > >
> > > > The International Shaw alphabet is being
> tailored
> > > for Americans to
> > > > ensure
> > > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much
> as
> > > possible, by
> > > > removing
> > > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from
> General
> > > American use.
> > > >
> > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get
> back
> > > to the monster killing...Hello!"
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> > > live on your desktop!
> > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> live on your desktop!
> > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
> >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
>
> >
>
> ---
>
> A tiger can smile
> A snake will say it loves you
> Lies make us evil
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2009 |
From: <embryomystic@c...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:20am
Subject: RE: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Several people have told you how to unsubscribe already. Hell, you
obviously willingly subscribed. So figure it out and move on. Christ.
> ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International Shaw Alphabet Subset
> ** Original Sender: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
> ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:07:03 -0500 (EST)
> ** Original Message follows...
>
> I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to get
> all this stuff that keeps coming.
>
> --- embryomystic@c... wrote:
> > Didn't you say you wanted to quit?
> >
> > P.S. OFF-TOPIC.
> >
> >
> > > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International
> > Shaw Alphabet Subset
> > > ** Original Sender: gerald baker
> > <glbaker50613@y...>
> > > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:08 -0500
> > (EST)
> >
> > > ** Original Message follows...
> >
> > >
> > > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
> > > From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...>
> > Subject:
> > > One person stopped a tank in China, but not in our
> > > "ally," Israel.
> > >
> > > The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who was
> > run
> > > > over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine, was
> > an
> > > evil
> > > > deed similar to the killing of the of the
> > > anti-slavery
> > > > activist John Brown, just before the Civil War.
> > > >
> > > > Brown's death was commemorated in the song "John
> > > > Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for the
> > > song
> > > > "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor song
> > > > "Solidarity Forever."
> > > >
> > > > I think there shoulld be a new version which
> > goes,
> > > >
> > > > "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in the
> > grave,
> > > > Her soul goes marching on."
> > > >
> > > > Gerald Baker
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to
> > > > create a fiting ISA,
> > > > will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> > > >
> > > > --Star
> > > >
> > > > --- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> > > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Hugh
> > > > > As usual, I completely agree with your
> > > > objectives for the
> > > > > International
> > > > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> >
> > > > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > > > letters, for people writing English based on a
> > > > General American
> > > > > English
> > > > > pronunciation.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme
> > > > should be the first
> > > > > step. And
> > > > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to
> > Brit-Eng
> > > > speakers; if the
> > > > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash'
> > are
> > > > observed (e.g.
> > > > > gr[æ]ss
> > > > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any,
> > > > comprehension problems
> > > > > if
> > > > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound
> > in
> > > > Brit-Eng.
> > > > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes
> > minimal
> > > > pairs in American
> > > > > English
> > > > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the
> > > > interest of clarity of
> > > > > communication/writing.
> > > > >
> > > > > The International Shaw alphabet is being
> > tailored
> > > > for Americans to
> > > > > ensure
> > > > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much
> > as
> > > > possible, by
> > > > > removing
> > > > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from
> > General
> > > > American use.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get
> > back
> > > > to the monster killing...Hello!"
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> > > > live on your desktop!
> > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> > live on your desktop!
> > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> >
> >
> > >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
> >
> > >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > A tiger can smile
> > A snake will say it loves you
> > Lies make us evil
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
>
---
A tiger can smile
A snake will say it loves you
Lies make us evil
|
|
| 2010 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:19am
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Easy tiger...
----- Original Message -----
From: <embryomystic@c...>
To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 1:20 AM
Subject: RE: [shavian] International Shaw Alphabet Subset
> Several people have told you how to unsubscribe already. Hell, you
obviously willingly subscribed. So figure it out and move on. Christ.
>
>
> > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International Shaw Alphabet Subset
> > ** Original Sender: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
> > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:07:03 -0500 (EST)
>
> > ** Original Message follows...
>
> >
> > I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to get
> > all this stuff that keeps coming.
> >
> > --- embryomystic@c... wrote:
> > > Didn't you say you wanted to quit?
> > >
> > > P.S. OFF-TOPIC.
> > >
> > >
> > > > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International
> > > Shaw Alphabet Subset
> > > > ** Original Sender: gerald baker
> > > <glbaker50613@y...>
> > > > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:08 -0500
> > > (EST)
> > >
> > > > ** Original Message follows...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
> > > > From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...>
> > > Subject:
> > > > One person stopped a tank in China, but not in our
> > > > "ally," Israel.
> > > >
> > > > The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who was
> > > run
> > > > > over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine, was
> > > an
> > > > evil
> > > > > deed similar to the killing of the of the
> > > > anti-slavery
> > > > > activist John Brown, just before the Civil War.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brown's death was commemorated in the song "John
> > > > > Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for the
> > > > song
> > > > > "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor song
> > > > > "Solidarity Forever."
> > > > >
> > > > > I think there shoulld be a new version which
> > > goes,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in the
> > > grave,
> > > > > Her soul goes marching on."
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerald Baker
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to
> > > > > create a fiting ISA,
> > > > > will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> > > > >
> > > > > --Star
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> > > > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Hugh
> > > > > > As usual, I completely agree with your
> > > > > objectives for the
> > > > > > International
> > > > > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > >
> > > > > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > > > > letters, for people writing English based on a
> > > > > General American
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > pronunciation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme
> > > > > should be the first
> > > > > > step. And
> > > > > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to
> > > Brit-Eng
> > > > > speakers; if the
> > > > > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash'
> > > are
> > > > > observed (e.g.
> > > > > > gr[æ]ss
> > > > > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any,
> > > > > comprehension problems
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound
> > > in
> > > > > Brit-Eng.
> > > > > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes
> > > minimal
> > > > > pairs in American
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the
> > > > > interest of clarity of
> > > > > > communication/writing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The International Shaw alphabet is being
> > > tailored
> > > > > for Americans to
> > > > > > ensure
> > > > > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much
> > > as
> > > > > possible, by
> > > > > > removing
> > > > > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from
> > > General
> > > > > American use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =====
> > > > > "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get
> > > back
> > > > > to the monster killing...Hello!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> > > > > live on your desktop!
> > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness,
> > > live on your desktop!
> > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > A tiger can smile
> > > A snake will say it loves you
> > > Lies make us evil
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
> >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
>
> >
>
> ---
>
> A tiger can smile
> A snake will say it loves you
> Lies make us evil
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
|
|
| 2011 |
From: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:22am
Subject: RE: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
I think someone must have figured a way to get me out
of this group. It that's so, thanks. Gerald Baker
--- embryomystic@c... wrote:
> Several people have told you how to unsubscribe
> already. Hell, you obviously willingly subscribed.
> So figure it out and move on. Christ.
>
>
> > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International
> Shaw Alphabet Subset
> > ** Original Sender: gerald baker
> <glbaker50613@y...>
> > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:07:03 -0500
> (EST)
>
> > ** Original Message follows...
>
> >
> > I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to
> get
> > all this stuff that keeps coming.
> >
> > --- embryomystic@c... wrote:
> > > Didn't you say you wanted to quit?
> > >
> > > P.S. OFF-TOPIC.
> > >
> > >
> > > > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian]
> International
> > > Shaw Alphabet Subset
> > > > ** Original Sender: gerald baker
> > > <glbaker50613@y...>
> > > > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:08
> -0500
> > > (EST)
> > >
> > > > ** Original Message follows...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
> > > > From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...>
> > > Subject:
> > > > One person stopped a tank in China, but not in
> our
> > > > "ally," Israel.
> > > >
> > > > The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who
> was
> > > run
> > > > > over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine,
> was
> > > an
> > > > evil
> > > > > deed similar to the killing of the of the
> > > > anti-slavery
> > > > > activist John Brown, just before the Civil
> War.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brown's death was commemorated in the song
> "John
> > > > > Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for
> the
> > > > song
> > > > > "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor
> song
> > > > > "Solidarity Forever."
> > > > >
> > > > > I think there shoulld be a new version which
> > > goes,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in
> the
> > > grave,
> > > > > Her soul goes marching on."
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerald Baker
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Paul, I do have a question, you are looking
> to
> > > > > create a fiting ISA,
> > > > > will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> > > > >
> > > > > --Star
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> > > > > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Hugh
> > > > > > As usual, I completely agree with your
> > > > > objectives for the
> > > > > > International
> > > > > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to
> minimize
> > >
> > > > > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > > > > letters, for people writing English based
> on a
> > > > > General American
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > pronunciation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also agree that removing the 'on'
> phoneme
> > > > > should be the first
> > > > > > step. And
> > > > > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to
> > > Brit-Eng
> > > > > speakers; if the
> > > > > > 'Northern English' conventions for
> 'ah'/'ash'
> > > are
> > > > > observed (e.g.
> > > > > > gr[æ]ss
> > > > > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if
> any,
> > > > > comprehension problems
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on'
> sound
> > > in
> > > > > Brit-Eng.
> > > > > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes
> > > minimal
> > > > > pairs in American
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the
> > > > > interest of clarity of
> > > > > > communication/writing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The International Shaw alphabet is being
> > > tailored
> > > > > for Americans to
> > > > > > ensure
> > > > > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as
> much
> > > as
> > > > > possible, by
> > > > > > removing
> > > > > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from
> > > General
> > > > > American use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =====
> > > > > "Alright, enough with the storyline, let's
> get
> > > back
> > > > > to the monster killing...Hello!"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March
> Madness,
> > > > > live on your desktop!
> > > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
> Sponsor
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March
> Madness,
> > > live on your desktop!
> > > > http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >** --------- End Original Message -----------
> **
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > A tiger can smile
> > > A snake will say it loves you
> > > Lies make us evil
> > >
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2012 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:24am
Subject: RE: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
hey gerald, could you stop spamming the list, please? If you want out,
then get out, it isn't that big of a deal.
--Star
--- embryomystic@c... wrote:
> Didn't you say you wanted to quit?
>
> P.S. OFF-TOPIC.
>
>
> > ** Original Subject: RE: [shavian] International Shaw Alphabet
> Subset
> > ** Original Sender: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
> > ** Original Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:55:08 -0500 (EST)
>
> > ** Original Message follows...
>
> >
> > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
> > From: "gerald baker" <glbaker50613@y...> Subject:
> > One person stopped a tank in China, but not in our
> > "ally," Israel.
> >
> > The killing of Rachel Corrie, a US student who was run
> > > over by an Israeli bulldozer in Palestine, was an
> > evil
> > > deed similar to the killing of the of the
> > anti-slavery
> > > activist John Brown, just before the Civil War.
> > >
> > > Brown's death was commemorated in the song "John
> > > Brown's Body," whose tune was later used for the
> > song
> > > "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and the labor song
> > > "Solidarity Forever."
> > >
> > > I think there shoulld be a new version which goes,
> > >
> > > "Rachel Corrie's body lies a-molderin' in the grave,
> > > Her soul goes marching on."
> > >
> > > Gerald Baker
> > > >
=====
"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster killing...Hello!"
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2013 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:40am
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
gerald baker wrote:
> I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to get
> all this stuff that keeps coming.
Gerald, I successfully unsubscribed myself from the list last night just
to test and make sure it was working. After I did that, I subsribed
again and sent a message listing every step you need to take in order to
unsubscribe. So I know there's nothing at all wrong with the server, it
works just fine. Allow me to repeat the instructions in even greater
detail.
*** Step 1:
Send an email to
shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
When you have done that, within several minutes you should receive an
email from "Yahoo! Groups Notification" and that email will look like this:
Hello,
We have received a request from you to unsubscribe from the
shavian group. Please confirm your request by
replying to this message. If you do not wish to unsubscribe from
shavian, please ignore this message.
Regards,
Yahoo! Groups Customer Care
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
*** Step 2:
When you get that message, send a reply to the message by clicking your
"reply" button in your email software. That being successfully
completed, you will receive another email from the same place which will
confirm that you have been removed from the list.
Please follow these instructions carefully, and stop spamming the list!
There is nothing we can do to remove you from the list, so you will
have to do it yourself.
--
Ethan
|
|
| 2014 |
From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:15am
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Hi Star
While I do expect that there will be additional letters added to ISA
eventually, to handle new sounds. At present, I wish to concentrate on
creating a useful subset of the original Shaw Alphabet, tailored to the
needs of the average American English speaker.
I think Hugh has taken a large step in the right direction, but obviously,
we need some American English Speakers to determine if the subset is workable.
Regards, Paul V.
At 12:57 PM 3/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
>Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to create a fiting ISA,
>will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
>
>--Star
>
>--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Hugh
> > As usual, I completely agree with your objectives for the
> > International
> > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > unnecessarily/redundant
> > letters, for people writing English based on a General American
> > English
> > pronunciation.
> >
> > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme should be the first
> > step. And
> > as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng speakers; if the
> > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed (e.g.
> > gr[æ]ss
> > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any, comprehension problems
> > if
> > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
> > And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal pairs in American
> > English
> > pronunciation, it should be removed in the interest of clarity of
> > communication/writing.
> >
> > The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored for Americans to
> > ensure
> > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as possible, by
> > removing
> > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General American use.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
>
>
>=====
>"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the monster
>killing...Hello!"
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
>http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
| 2015 |
From: gerald baker <glbaker50613@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:17pm
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
I'm going to do that. If it works, fine. This will
then be the last thing the group gets from me. I had
time for Shaw alphabet stuff back in the Sixties, but
not now. Also this group wouldn't appreciate Shaw's
other ideas, from what I've seen. GB
--- Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> gerald baker wrote:
> > I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to
> get
> > all this stuff that keeps coming.
>
> Gerald, I successfully unsubscribed myself from the
> list last night just
> to test and make sure it was working. After I did
> that, I subsribed
> again and sent a message listing every step you need
> to take in order to
> unsubscribe. So I know there's nothing at all wrong
> with the server, it
> works just fine. Allow me to repeat the
> instructions in even greater
> detail.
>
> *** Step 1:
>
> Send an email to
> shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> When you have done that, within several minutes you
> should receive an
> email from "Yahoo! Groups Notification" and that
> email will look like this:
>
> Hello,
>
> We have received a request from you to unsubscribe
> from the
> shavian group. Please confirm your request by
> replying to this message. If you do not wish to
> unsubscribe from
> shavian, please ignore this message.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yahoo! Groups Customer Care
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> *** Step 2:
>
> When you get that message, send a reply to the
> message by clicking your
> "reply" button in your email software. That being
> successfully
> completed, you will receive another email from the
> same place which will
> confirm that you have been removed from the list.
>
> Please follow these instructions carefully, and stop
> spamming the list!
> There is nothing we can do to remove you from the
> list, so you will
> have to do it yourself.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2016 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 4:25pm
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
|
It seems odd that you were quite
happy to post and contribute for so long, and then you decide
almost overnight that you have no time for it and start
complaining vehemently that you can't get out. What
you have been saying has been valuable and I for one will miss it. We
need people with knowledge from Shavian's early days. One
thing I can't understand, Gerald, is why you feel you have to justify
yourself to all of us. If you want to leave, go ahead and leave. Don't
post repeatedly that you haven't got time, your computer is being
overloaded, whatever, just do what you have to do.
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] International Shaw Alphabet Subset
I'm going to do that. If it works, fine. This will
then be the last thing the group gets from me. I had
time for Shaw alphabet stuff back in the Sixties, but
not now. Also this group wouldn't appreciate Shaw's
other ideas, from what I've seen. GB
--- Ethan <ethanl@30below.com> wrote:
> gerald baker wrote:
> > I do want to quit, and that means I don't want to
> get
> > all this stuff that keeps coming.
>
> Gerald, I successfully unsubscribed myself from the
> list last night just
> to test and make sure it was working. After I did
> that, I subsribed
> again and sent a message listing every step you need
> to take in order to
> unsubscribe. So I know there's nothing at all wrong
> with the server, it
> works just fine. Allow me to repeat the
> instructions in even greater
> detail.
>
> *** Step 1:
>
> Send an email to
> shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> When you have done that, within several minutes you
> should receive an
> email from "Yahoo! Groups Notification" and that
> email will look like this:
>
> Hello,
>
> We have received a request from you to unsubscribe
> from the
> shavian group. Please confirm your request by
> replying to this message. If you do not wish to
> unsubscribe from
> shavian, please ignore this message.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yahoo! Groups Customer Care
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> *** Step 2:
>
> When you get that message, send a reply to the
> message by clicking your
> "reply" button in your email software. That being
> successfully
> completed, you will receive another email from the
> same place which will
> confirm that you have been removed from the list.
>
> Please follow these instructions carefully, and stop
> spamming the list!
> There is nothing we can do to remove you from the
> list, so you will
> have to do it yourself.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| 2017 |
From: Joe <allegrox_2000@y...>
Date: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:58pm
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
As a speaker of an American dialect that aproaches General American,
I would be glad to give my opinion of the workability of your
American subset of Shavian. If you can provide a chart of the
letters and their sounds, I'm eager to see it.
-AllegroX
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> While I do expect that there will be additional letters added to
ISA
> eventually, to handle new sounds. At present, I wish to concentrate
on
> creating a useful subset of the original Shaw Alphabet, tailored to
the
> needs of the average American English speaker.
> I think Hugh has taken a large step in the right direction, but
obviously,
> we need some American English Speakers to determine if the subset
is workable.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> At 12:57 PM 3/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to create a fiting ISA,
> >will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> >
> >--Star
> >
> >--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > Hi Hugh
> > > As usual, I completely agree with your objectives for the
> > > International
> > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > letters, for people writing English based on a General American
> > > English
> > > pronunciation.
> > >
> > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme should be the first
> > > step. And
> > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng speakers; if
the
> > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed (e.g.
> > > gr[æ]ss
> > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any, comprehension
problems
> > > if
> > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
> > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal pairs in
American
> > > English
> > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the interest of clarity
of
> > > communication/writing.
> > >
> > > The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored for Americans
to
> > > ensure
> > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as possible, by
> > > removing
> > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General American use.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the
monster
> >killing...Hello!"
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
desktop!
> >http://platinum.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
| 2018 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Fri Mar 21, 2003 0:41am
Subject: Re: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
|
Hi Joe
Here is a list of all characters I used for the cut alphabet:
p = b
t = d
k = g
f = v
T = H
s = z
S = Z
c = J
j = w
N = h
l = r
m = n
i = I
e = E
A = F
a = O
U = M
Q = q
y = Y
And the complete list of letter names (with some elaborations):
1. peep
2. bib
3. tot
4. dead
5. kick
6. gag
7. fee
8. vow
9. thigh
10. they
11. so
12. zoo
13. sure
14. measure
15. church
16. judge
17. yea - yonder, piano, million
18. woe - suede, suite
19. hung - think, linger, thankyou
20. ha-ha
21. loll
22. roar - car, traitor, marry, fervour
23. mime
24. nun
25. if
26. eat - queasy, sillier, seemly
27. egg
28. age
29. ash
30. eye
31. ado - us, murmurous, among, girder, offal, utter
32. oak
33. wool
34. ooze - superfluous
35. out
36. oil
37. ah - on, psalm, hot, part, palmolive
38. awe - paw, wrought, core, call, hawthorn
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:58 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
As a speaker of an American dialect that aproaches General American,
I would be glad to give my opinion of the workability of your
American subset of Shavian. If you can provide a chart of the
letters and their sounds, I'm eager to see it.
-AllegroX
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> While I do expect that there will be additional letters added to
ISA
> eventually, to handle new sounds. At present, I wish to concentrate
on
> creating a useful subset of the original Shaw Alphabet, tailored to
the
> needs of the average American English speaker.
> I think Hugh has taken a large step in the right direction, but
obviously,
> we need some American English Speakers to determine if the subset
is workable.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> At 12:57 PM 3/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to create a fiting ISA,
> >will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> >
> >--Star
> >
> >--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink wrote:
> > > Hi Hugh
> > > As usual, I completely agree with your objectives for the
> > > International
> > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > letters, for people writing English based on a General American
> > > English
> > > pronunciation.
> > >
> > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme should be the first
> > > step. And
> > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng speakers; if
the
> > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed (e.g.
> > > gr[æ]ss
> > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any, comprehension
problems
> > > if
> > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
> > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal pairs in
American
> > > English
> > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the interest of clarity
of
> > > communication/writing.
> > >
> > > The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored for Americans
to
> > > ensure
> > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as possible, by
> > > removing
> > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General American use.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the
monster
> >killing...Hello!"
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
desktop!
> >http://platinum.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
|
|
|
| 2019 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:19am
Subject: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Hi Joe
I like the Cut alphabet, but I feel it needs to be expanded to handle
non-intuitive Schwa sounds and the Schwerr sound (er). i am not sure
of the simpliest way to handle this requirement.
I don't want to go in the direction of creating a proliferation of
variant letters, but we at the very least need a way to indicate that
a consonant is being pronounced in a syllabic fashion. Essentially,
there is a minimal or non-intuitive Schwa sound preceeding or merging
with the the consonant, to make it a stand-alone syllable.
For example, in words like girl, baker, button, blossom, fire, labor,
boxes, foxes, fishes.
I also notice a non-intuitive Schwa at the end of some uncommon
Dipthongs, for which the Original Shaw Letter Ian, is a good example.
(Mamma Mia, India, idea). But there are other less common
examples, "oa", (boa, Mona Koa), Aia, (Iacocca).
I don't know if this sound is consistently applicable to General
American or British R.P. pronunciation.
But the question of how to handle these sounds does needs to be
addressed.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@b...>
wrote:
> Hi Joe
>
> Here is a list of all characters I used for the cut alphabet:
>
> p = b
> t = d
> k = g
> f = v
> T = H
> s = z
> S = Z
> c = J
> j = w
> N = h
>
> l = r
> m = n
> i = I
> e = E
> A = F
> a = O
> U = M
> Q = q
> y = Y
>
> And the complete list of letter names (with some elaborations):
>
> 1. peep
> 2. bib
> 3. tot
> 4. dead
> 5. kick
> 6. gag
> 7. fee
> 8. vow
> 9. thigh
> 10. they
> 11. so
> 12. zoo
> 13. sure
> 14. measure
> 15. church
> 16. judge
> 17. yea - yonder, piano, million
> 18. woe - suede, suite
> 19. hung - think, linger, thankyou
> 20. ha-ha
> 21. loll
> 22. roar - car, traitor, marry, fervour
> 23. mime
> 24. nun
> 25. if
> 26. eat - queasy, sillier, seemly
> 27. egg
> 28. age
> 29. ash
> 30. eye
> 31. ado - us, murmurous, among, girder, offal, utter
> 32. oak
> 33. wool
> 34. ooze - superfluous
> 35. out
> 36. oil
> 37. ah - on, psalm, hot, part, palmolive
> 38. awe - paw, wrought, core, call, hawthorn
>
> Hugh B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe
> To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:58 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
>
>
> As a speaker of an American dialect that aproaches General
American,
> I would be glad to give my opinion of the workability of your
> American subset of Shavian. If you can provide a chart of the
> letters and their sounds, I'm eager to see it.
>
> -AllegroX
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Paul Gershon Vandenbrink
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Star
> > While I do expect that there will be additional letters added
to
> ISA
> > eventually, to handle new sounds. At present, I wish to
concentrate
> on
> > creating a useful subset of the original Shaw Alphabet,
tailored to
> the
> > needs of the average American English speaker.
> > I think Hugh has taken a large step in the right direction, but
> obviously,
> > we need some American English Speakers to determine if the
subset
> is workable.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > At 12:57 PM 3/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Paul, I do have a question, you are looking to create a fiting
ISA,
> > >will you include the /hw/ or voiceless w?
> > >
> > >--Star
> > >
> > >--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Hugh
> > > > As usual, I completely agree with your objectives for
the
> > > > International
> > > > Shaw Alphabet. It must be designed to minimize
> > > > unnecessarily/redundant
> > > > letters, for people writing English based on a General
American
> > > > English
> > > > pronunciation.
> > > >
> > > > I also agree that removing the 'on' phoneme should be the
first
> > > > step. And
> > > > as it would not even be unadvantagous to Brit-Eng
speakers; if
> the
> > > > 'Northern English' conventions for 'ah'/'ash' are observed
(e.g.
> > > > gr[?ss
> > > > not gr[a:]ss). There will be very few, if any,
comprehension
> problems
> > > > if
> > > > the 'ah' letter also represents the 'on' sound in Brit-Eng.
> > > > And as this sound no longer distinguishes minimal pairs in
> American
> > > > English
> > > > pronunciation, it should be removed in the interest of
clarity
> of
> > > > communication/writing.
> > > >
> > > > The International Shaw alphabet is being tailored for
Americans
> to
> > > > ensure
> > > > that conflicting spellings are avoided as much as possible,
by
> > > > removing
> > > > redundant and ambiguous Shaw letters from General American
use.
> > > >
> > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=====
> > >"Alright, enough with the storyline, let's get back to the
> monster
> > >killing...Hello!"
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > >Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your
> desktop!
> > >http://platinum.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
|
|
| 2020 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@b...>
Date: Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:36am
Subject: Re: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 1:19 AM
Subject: [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
Hi Joe
I like the Cut alphabet, but I feel it needs to be expanded to handle
non-intuitive Schwa sounds and the Schwerr sound (er). i am not sure
of the simpliest way to handle this requirement.
Hi Paul
I looked at this and decided that the subtle differences were best consolidated in existing letters of the alphabet.
If you read on, you will see how.
I don't want to go in the direction of creating a proliferation of
variant letters, but we at the very least need a way to indicate that
a consonant is being pronounced in a syllabic fashion. Essentially,
there is a minimal or non-intuitive Schwa sound preceeding or merging
with the the consonant, to make it a stand-alone syllable.
The rule of thumb for this cut version of Shavian is basically
"if there is a syllable, there must be a vowel". Where the vowel sound
is indeterminate and/or merged, use 'ado' (schwa/neutral vowel) in most
cases.
Take the word "verbal". Both of the two syllables could be
described as being 'syllabic consonants'. In cut Shavian, you would
write it as: varbal. The 'ado' letter indicates the fact that the consonants are syllabic, and is more or less accurate to the spoken sounds.
Compare the words "furry" and "free". One has two syllables, the other does not. In the cut alphabet, for "furry", write: farI. For "free", write: frI.
For example, in words like girl, baker, button, blossom, fire, labor,
boxes, foxes, fishes.
garl, bEkar, batan, blysam, fFr, lEbar, byksaz, fyksaz, fiSaz.
'Ado' will... er... do! :)
I also notice a non-intuitive Schwa at the end of some uncommon
Dipthongs, for which the Original Shaw Letter Ian, is a good example.
(Mamma Mia, India, idea).
myma mIa, /indIa, FdIa.
But there are other less common
examples, "oa", (boa, Mona Koa), Aia, (Iacocca).
bOa, /mOna /kOa, Fa (I think), /Fakyka (again, I think).
I don't know if this sound is consistently applicable to General
American or British R.P. pronunciation.
Yes, it is applicable to both, but as I've shown above, it
doesn't warrant a separate method of being transcribed in the cut
alphabet. 'Ado' works just fine.
But the question of how to handle these sounds does needs to be
addressed.
Ditto...
Hugh B |
|
|
| 2021 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Sat Mar 22, 2003 8:52am
Subject: Re: Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
|
| |
Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* paul vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@s...>
> *To:* shavian@yahoogroups.com <mailto:shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2003 1:19 AM
> *Subject:* [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
>
> Hi Joe
>
> I like the Cut alphabet, but I feel it needs to be expanded to handle
> non-intuitive Schwa sounds and the Schwerr sound (er). i am not sure
> of the simpliest way to handle this requirement.
>
> Hi Paul
>
> I looked at this and decided that the subtle differences were best
> consolidated in existing letters of the alphabet.
>
> If you read on, you will see how.
>
> I don't want to go in the direction of creating a proliferation of
> variant letters, but we at the very least need a way to indicate that
> a consonant is being pronounced in a syllabic fashion. Essentially,
> there is a minimal or non-intuitive Schwa sound preceeding or merging
> with the the consonant, to make it a stand-alone syllable.
>
> The rule of thumb for this cut version of Shavian is basically "if there
> is a syllable, there must be a vowel". Where the vowel sound is
> indeterminate and/or merged, use 'ado' (schwa/neutral vowel) in most cases.
>
> Take the word "verbal". Both of the two syllables could be described as
> being 'syllabic consonants'. In cut Shavian, you would write it as:
> varbal. The 'ado' letter indicates the fact that the consonants are
> syllabic, and is more or less accurate to the spoken sounds.
>
> Compare the words "furry" and "free". One has two syllables, the other
> does not. In the cut alphabet, for "furry", write: farI. For "free",
> write: frI.
>
> For example, in words like girl, baker, button, blossom, fire, labor,
> boxes, foxes, fishes.
>
> garl, bEkar, batan, blysam, fFr, lEbar, byksaz, fyksaz, fiSaz.
>
> 'Ado' will... er... do! :)
>
> I also notice a non-intuitive Schwa at the end of some uncommon
> Dipthongs, for which the Original Shaw Letter Ian, is a good example.
> (Mamma Mia, India, idea).
>
> myma mIa, /indIa, FdIa.
>
> But there are other less common
> examples, "oa", (boa, Mona Koa), Aia, (Iacocca).
>
> bOa, /mOna /kOa, Fa (I think), /Fakyka (again, I think).
>
> I don't know if this sound is consistently applicable to General
> American or British R.P. pronunciation.
>
> Yes, it is applicable to both, but as I've shown above, it doesn't
> warrant a separate method of being transcribed in the cut alphabet.
> 'Ado' works just fine.
>
> But the question of how to handle these sounds does needs to be
> addressed.
>
> Ditto...
>
> Hugh B
I don't know... Using an ado in front of roar for what amounts to a
separate vowel sound in American English is an example of a digraph -
two letters for one sound. I believe that goes against the rules for
the construction of the alphabet, namely that there should be one letter
per sound, or more precisely, one letter per phoneme. In my speech,
"er" as found in "herder" (I don't distinguish between accented and
non-accented) is a single phoneme. It can't be split into two sounds,
even, because there's only one. I would find using ado + roar
disagreeable, because I don't say it that way. I also currently do not
use an ado in front of syllabic l, n, or m, because it looks "added".
Are we really going to use silent letters? Do we want to take the
alphabet in that direction?
--
Ethan
|
|
| 2022 |
From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:08am
Subject: International Shaw Alphabet Subset - Bonus Round
|
| |
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
>Subject: International Shaw Alphabet Subset - Bonus Round
>
>Hi Ethan
>I tend to agree with you concerning the Schwerr sound (Array).
>It is a distinct sound. And it very common in both its stressed and
>unstressed form, so I think it should have its own Shaw letter. I am
>leaning towards the Array letter, as that letter matches well with the Ado
>letter.
>However, I do agree with Hugh that my original suggestion, to have a
>letter for non-intuitive Schwa sounds is counter-productive and just
>likely to add confusion. Most English speakers without phonetic training
>cannot differentiate between the Schwa, the soft u sound (up), and the
>minimal vowel sound preceding a syllabic l, m, n or z. (Elm/Alum)
>
>This minimal vowel sound is not silent, although it a very quiet sound.
>
>Anyway, I have been looking at the benefits of the International Shaw
>Alphabet, and it just seems to get better and better. Because it is such a
>large subset of the Original Shavian Alphabet, someone who knows the
>I.S.A. should have little difficulty in reading the Original Shaw Alphabet
>and vice versa.
>A number of the replacement Diagraphs in I.S.A, even resemble the original
>Shaw letter. i.e. (Yea + Ooze => Yew)
>Note in this case does represent 2 sounds, not 1.
>
>Regards, Paul V.
>
>P.S. I don't think that the difference between using 38 or 39 letters, is
>enough to stop people from going ahead and trying to use the new subset of
>the Shaw Alphabet. It should not be a sticking point.
>For Americans familiar with the original Shaw Alphabet, just remember the
>new equivalencies for excluded letters.
>
>1. Yew = Yea + Ooze
>2. Ian = Eat + Ado
>3. Up = Ado
>4. On = Ah
>5. Urge = Array
>6. Are = Ah + Array
>7. Air = Egg + Array
>8. Or = Oak + Array
>9. Ear = Eat + Array
>Other Diagraphs
>10. Ire = Ice + Array
>
>P.P.S. I don't have a strong recommendation for whether or not to put a
>Schwa (Ado), before a syllabic consonant. Still thinking about what would
>work best. Any Suggestions.
>__________________attached___________________________
>
>Paul & Hugh
>
>>I don't know... Using an ado in front of roar for what amounts to a
>>separate vowel sound in American English is an example of a digraph -
>>two letters for one sound. I believe that goes against the rules for
>>the construction of the alphabet, namely that there should be one letter
>>per sound, or more precisely, one letter per phoneme. In my speech,
>>"er" as found in "herder" (I don't distinguish between accented and
>>non-accented) is a single phoneme. It can't be split into two sounds,
>>even, because there's only one. I would find using ado + roar
>>disagreeable, because I don't say it that way. I also currently do not
>>use an ado in front of syllabic l, n, or m, because it looks "added".
>>Are we really going to use silent letters? Do we want to take the
>>alphabet in that direction?
>>
>>--
>>Ethan
>
>
>
>At 03:52 AM 3/22/03 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > *From:* paul vandenbrink <mailto:pvandenbrink@s...>
>> > *To:* shavian@yahoogroups.com <mailto:shavian@yahoogroups.com>
>> > *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2003 1:19 AM
>> > *Subject:* [shavian] Re: International Shaw Alphabet Subset
>> >
>> > Hi Joe
>> >
>> > I like the Cut alphabet, but I feel it needs to be expanded to handle
>> > non-intuitive Schwa sounds and the Schwerr sound (er). i am not sure
>> > of the simpliest way to handle this requirement.
>> >
>> > Hi Paul
>> >
>> > I looked at this and decided that the subtle differences were best
>> > consolidated in existing letters of the alphabet.
>> >
>> > If you read on, you will see how.
>> >
>> > I don't want to go in the direction of creating a proliferation of
>> > variant letters, but we at the very least need a way to indicate that
>> > a consonant is being pronounced in a syllabic fashion. Essentially,
>> > there is a minimal or non-intuitive Schwa sound preceeding or merging
>> > with the the consonant, to make it a stand-alone syllable.
>> >
>> > The rule of thumb for this cut version of Shavian is basically "if there
>> > is a syllable, there must be a vowel". Where the vowel sound is
>> > indeterminate and/or merged, use 'ado' (schwa/neutral vowel) in most
>> cases.
>> >
>> > Take the word "verbal". Both of the two syllables could be described as
>> > being 'syllabic consonants'. In cut Shavian, you would write it as:
>> > varbal. The 'ado' letter indicates the fact that the consonants are
>> > syllabic, and is more or less accurate to the spoken sounds.
>> >
>> > Compare the words "furry" and "free". One has two syllables, the other
>> > does not. In the cut alphabet, for "furry", write: farI. For "free",
>> > write: frI.
>> >
>> > For example, in words like girl, baker, button, blossom, fire, labor,
>> > boxes, foxes, fishes.
>> >
>> > garl, bEkar, batan, blysam, fFr, lEbar, byksaz, fyksaz, fiSaz.
>> >
>> > 'Ado' will... er... do! :)
>> >
>> > I also notice a non-intuitive Schwa at the end of some uncommon
>> > Dipthongs, for which the Original Shaw Letter Ian, is a good example.
>> > (Mamma Mia, India, idea).
>> >
>> > myma mIa, /indIa, FdIa.
>> >
>> > But there are other less common
>> > examples, "oa", (boa, Mona Koa), Aia, (Iacocca).
>> >
>> > bOa, /mOna /kOa, Fa (I think), /Fakyka (again, I think).
>> >
>> > I don't know if this sound is consistently applicable to General
>> > American or British R.P. pronunciation.
>> >
>> > Yes, it is applicable to both, but as I've shown above, it doesn't
>> > warrant a separate method of being transcribed in the cut alphabet.
>> > 'Ado' works just fine.
>> >
>> > But the question of how to handle these sounds does needs to be
>> > addressed.
>> >
>> > Ditto...
>> >
>> > Hugh B
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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