|
|
|
| 2383 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:31pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Hi Everyone
I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree on a
Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
Other suggestions?
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> This is an indirect responds to "Gold Standard".
> I have determined at least three ways to determine shavian
spelling.
> 1. Dictionary Pronouncation
> 2. Inferement from traditional orthography
> 3. Personal Pronouncation
>
> Unfortunately, these vary from time and place like Paul suggested.
> So, just like all English speaking people decided through
educational means to come up with an accepted dialect (which we call
Standard English) we must like Joseph suggested invent an accepted
pronouncation -- called Standard Shavian Spelling (SSS).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2384 |
From:  Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:45am
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Perhapsm, allowing for differences between American and British RP,
this would work wonderfully. Standard Shavian.... the name wants for
something, though....
Asthetically displeased,
--Star
--- carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> This is an indirect responds to "Gold Standard".
> I have determined at least three ways to determine shavian spelling.
> 1. Dictionary Pronouncation
> 2. Inferement from traditional orthography
> 3. Personal Pronouncation
>
> Unfortunately, these vary from time and place like Paul suggested.
> So, just like all English speaking people decided through educational
> means to come up with an accepted dialect (which we call Standard
> English) we must like Joseph suggested invent an accepted
> pronouncation -- called Standard Shavian Spelling (SSS).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2385 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Gold Standard
|
| |
> The Eastern (Indian) accent of English probably has the most number
> of speakers. American English is fairly high status in most of the
> world, but the British Accent is not far behind in status or usage.
> I don't see how you can have a world wide standard English
> pronunciation?
I hate to disagree, but I thought more Chinese spoke English than all
of the other groups put together, including the US. Thus Chinese
English would be the standard. For reasons this is a bad idea, see:
http://www.engrish.com
Perhaps a pair of us (preferrably more) from either side of the
atlantic should simply work within their own RP (yes, my fellow
americans, we do have an RP, it is something like Mid-Western or
something, but it is taught in journalism speech classes) and simply
combine the two later, is this answer so inconceivable?
--Star
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2386 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:54am
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
> I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree on a
> Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> Other suggestions?
What about Oxford v. Merriam-Webster? The "Old standard."
--Star
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2387 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:44am
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
On 22 Oct 2003 at 22:31, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree on a
> Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> Other suggestions?
How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing dictionaries? For
example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure I've
heard of a similar effort from the UK which could be used for British.
That would save the effort of keying in thousands of pronunciations
oneself.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2388 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:39pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Hi
I have already keyed in one thousand words, and am well willing to do
more. What I need is input from other people. I want to know how you
speak so that my spellings are not based on only one dictionary and
one person.
If you would like the file, please give me your email adress, it is
currently Word Document format, but be warned I'll pester you for
your thoughts.
Several askings first though on your preferences:
1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
former, but I say the latter.
2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i' or 'I'?
Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
I need input from everybody!
By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name. It
gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
squish variation underfoot.
Thanks in anticipation
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On 22 Oct 2003 at 22:31, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree on
a
> > Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> > Other suggestions?
>
> How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing dictionaries?
For
> example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
I've
> heard of a similar effort from the UK which could be used for
British.
> That would save the effort of keying in thousands of pronunciations
> oneself.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2389 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
On 23 Oct 2003 at 17:39, Joseph Smith wrote:
> 1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
> former, but I say the latter.
I saw "y", but then, my pronunciation is mostly British.
> 2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i' or 'I'?
> Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
I think this is a thorny question :) I hear something more like "I", or
perhaps in between "i" and "I".
> 3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
Not for me. "sure" rhymes with "poor" and "your": I'd represent that
sound with "UD" in the Shaw alphabet. (And I'd use "P" for "shore" and
"pore".)
> By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name. It
> gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
> squish variation underfoot.
Perhaps even "Preferred American Spelling"?
Or do you think you'll be able to standardise on a spelling that's
acceptable to American and British speakers alike, or even all English
speakers (including e.g. Australian, New Zealand, South Africa, and
India)?
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2390 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
|
Hi Star,
I agree it should be Oxford v. Merriam-Webster. Or perhaps Encarta?
Best regards,
Carl
Star Raven wrote:
> I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree on a
> Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> Other suggestions?
What about Oxford v. Merriam-Webster? The "Old standard."
--Star
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2391 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
|
Hi Joseph,
1. The vowel in 'grass' in my accent group is a 'ae' like in 'cat' or 'at'
2. For words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' in my accent group end in an 'ee' sound.
3. In my accent group 'sure' is pronounced 'shuhr' and 'shore' is pronounced 'shohr'.
Hope this helps,
Carl
Joseph Smith wrote:
Hi
I have already keyed in one thousand words, and am well willing to do
more. What I need is input from other people. I want to know how you
speak so that my spellings are not based on only one dictionary and
one person.
If you would like the file, please give me your email adress, it is
currently Word Document format, but be warned I'll pester you for
your thoughts.
Several askings first though on your preferences:
1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
former, but I say the latter.
2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i' or 'I'?
Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
I need input from everybody!
By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name. It
gives the
idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
squish variation underfoot.
Thanks in anticipation
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton"
wrote:
> On 22 Oct 2003 at 22:31, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree on
a
> > Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> > Other suggestions?
>
> How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing dictionaries?
For
> example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
I've
> heard of a similar effort from the UK which could be used for
British.
> That would save the effort of keying in thousands of pronunciations
> oneself.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2392 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:25pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Hi Carl & Star
I suppose I could use Oxford. I have not checked it's pronunciation
thoroughly, but it probably suffices.
But Merriam-Webster trys to use an extended Roman Alphabet with
diacritics to indicate pronunciation. It has duplicate letters, is
inadequate and is quite confusing, because it doesn't have a one to
one relationship between pronunciation key letters and English
sounds. Webster International Edition looks a lot better.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should be
our arbitrator, for determining preferred pronunciation. Dissenters
speak now? Or forever hold your peace.
_____________________attached_______________________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Star,
>
> I agree it should be Oxford v. Merriam-Webster. Or perhaps
Encarta?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Carl
>
> Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree
on a
> > Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> > Other suggestions?
>
> What about Oxford v. Merriam-Webster? The "Old standard."
>
> --Star
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2393 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:50pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Hi Carl & Joseph
Hey Carl. Can you use use the Shaw letters or provide more samples.
I don't know how uhr and ohr would be pronounced by you.
I think Joseph is using a dictionary where the pronunciation is
based on some version of British RP pronunciation.
1. I pronounce 'grass' with 'ae' (A) sound.
2. I pronounce words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' with
an "ee" (I) sound'?
> 3. 'sure' does not rhyme with 'shore' for me.
Sure is Sx or sher. It rhymes with surge, ar=ray, urge and the
British pronunciation of "err".
As for working on your the proposed standard American pronunciation
word list in Shaw, I have already put a small list on Hugh's
bulletin (Ikon) board at www.shavian.org.
Why don't you do the same with your 1000 words?
Cut and paste your dictionary list into a new topic posting over
there.
As well as being easier to access, it allows the originator to edit
his post. You can break it up into letters. (Thanks Star) Do all the
A words to start. Just for example.
Once you have it there I will check all your words, and point out
any errors or differences from my pronunciation that I find.
My accent is Mid-western and Stodgy, quite middle of the road.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Joseph,
>
> 1. The vowel in 'grass' in my accent group is a 'ae' like
in 'cat' or 'at'
> 2. For words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' in my accent
group end in an 'ee' sound.
> 3. In my accent group 'sure' is pronounced 'shuhr' and 'shore'
is pronounced 'shohr'.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Carl
> Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have already keyed in one thousand words, and am well willing to
do
> more. What I need is input from other people. I want to know how
you
> speak so that my spellings are not based on only one dictionary
and
> one person.
>
> If you would like the file, please give me your email adress, it
is
> currently Word Document format, but be warned I'll pester you for
> your thoughts.
>
> Several askings first though on your preferences:
>
> 1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
> former, but I say the latter.
>
> 2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i'
or 'I'?
> Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
>
> 3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
>
> I need input from everybody!
>
> By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name.
It
> gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
> squish variation underfoot.
>
> Thanks in anticipation
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton"
<philip.newton@g...>
> wrote:
> > On 22 Oct 2003 at 22:31, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree
on
> a
> > > Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> > > Other suggestions?
> >
> > How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing
dictionaries?
> For
> > example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
> I've
> > heard of a similar effort from the UK which could be used for
> British.
> > That would save the effort of keying in thousands of
pronunciations
> > oneself.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Philip
> > --
> > Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2394 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:56pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Thanks for your reply,
I hope to make a single standard, as what is the point in having two
standards? Shavian is meant to facilitate communication, not make it
any harder.
The only English I wish to leave out is Scottish. It is very
divergent, and not wholly part of the English speech community, being
much more like a language in itself.
I think I shall change '-ly' endings to become 'ee'.
Unfortunately my accent merges 'pore' 'poor' 'paw'
and 'sure' 'shore' 'Shaw', but I don't mind having different
spellings, as the letters will still mean the same thing to me.
My pronounciation is British too! but I have no idea sometimes to
what my dictionary refers to. Some of the sounds listed I don't know,
but I am willing to go along with them, as we all need to give a
litle to make it work.
What about 'n' 'm' and 'l', do they need schwa sounds before them
they are syllabic? I know they aren't there, but will it help to have
them?
Thanks
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2003 at 17:39, Joseph Smith wrote:
>
> > 1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
> > former, but I say the latter.
>
> I saw "y", but then, my pronunciation is mostly British.
>
> > 2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i'
or 'I'?
> > Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
>
> I think this is a thorny question :) I hear something more
like "I", or
> perhaps in between "i" and "I".
>
> > 3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
>
> Not for me. "sure" rhymes with "poor" and "your": I'd represent
that
> sound with "UD" in the Shaw alphabet. (And I'd use "P" for "shore"
and
> "pore".)
>
> > By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name.
It
> > gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
> > squish variation underfoot.
>
> Perhaps even "Preferred American Spelling"?
>
> Or do you think you'll be able to standardise on a spelling that's
> acceptable to American and British speakers alike, or even all
English
> speakers (including e.g. Australian, New Zealand, South Africa, and
> India)?
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2395 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:59pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Preferred American Pronunciation would be good. Not too dogmatic or
proscriptive. Clear Cut American Pronunciation has a double meaning
which could prove confusing.
Go with preferred.
Regards, Paul V.
_______________________________attached____________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2003 at 17:39, Joseph Smith wrote:
>
> > 1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
> > former, but I say the latter.
>
> I saw "y", but then, my pronunciation is mostly British.
>
> > 2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i'
or 'I'?
> > Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
>
> I think this is a thorny question :) I hear something more
like "I", or
> perhaps in between "i" and "I".
>
> > 3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
>
> Not for me. "sure" rhymes with "poor" and "your": I'd represent
that
> sound with "UD" in the Shaw alphabet. (And I'd use "P" for "shore"
and
> "pore".)
>
> > By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name.
It
> > gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want
to
> > squish variation underfoot.
>
> Perhaps even "Preferred American Spelling"?
>
> Or do you think you'll be able to standardise on a spelling that's
> acceptable to American and British speakers alike, or even all
English
> speakers (including e.g. Australian, New Zealand, South Africa,
and
> India)?
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2396 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
On 23 Oct 2003 at 19:25, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should be
> our arbitrator, for determining preferred pronunciation. Dissenters
> speak now? Or forever hold your peace.
I agree in principle. It depends on the dictionary :)
I would prefer one that corresponds to the dialect in _Androcles_ (that
is, rhotic, but that differentiates between e.g. father/bother,
grass/mass, Mary/marry/merry, etc.).
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2397 |
From: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:22pm
Subject: New file uploaded to shavian
|
| |
|
| 2398 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:31pm
Subject: Websites
|
| |
Message to all!
Who owns shavian.org, and why is it so uninspiring?
That should be our central hub, and yet it is a boring grey slate
with not so much as a slither or shavian text! Can't we either get it
going, or get a new website?
Also, does anyone have a website/page all in shavian? Or perhaps a
unicode editor (all those ampersand/hash/semicolons pee me off)?
I want to build a website (got the space reserved) to put up this
standard, but if you know of anything that might help, please tell me.
Thanks
Joseph
|
|
| 2399 |
From: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:58pm
Subject: New file uploaded to shavian
|
| |
|
| 2400 |
From: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:31pm
Subject: New file uploaded to shavian
|
| |
|
| 2401 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:59am
Subject: Re: Websites
|
| |
On 23 Oct 2003 at 21:31, Joseph Smith wrote:
> Who owns shavian.org,
I do.
> and why is it so uninspiring?
Because I'm not that great on providing content and nobody else has
volunteered so far.
I initially posted to this group about it saying I'd make the domain
available but others would have to provide content. So far, nobody has,
so it's just a link list and some forums where people can talk in and
about Shavian.
(The forums will, unfortunately, have to come down soon because they're
taking up more space than I've been paying for.)
> That should be our central hub, and yet it is a boring grey slate
> with not so much as a slither or shavian text!
Did you look at the forums (
http://shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi )? I admit I haven't
gone there for ages, but I'm fairly sure there is text in Shavian
there.
> Can't we either get it going, or get a new website?
Remember that we're all volunteers around here. This "we" includes
yourself.
If you want to provide content, you're more than welcome to; the
contact address is listed near the top of the Shavian web site.
(Including "Shavian" in the subject of the email would help so I don't
accidentally delete it amidst the volumes of spam I receive.)
Don't expect other people to do stuff. (I don't, either, at least as
regards the web site. So I live with its simply being a list of links.)
> Also, does anyone have a website/page all in shavian?
Did you have a look at some of the links? For example, Scott Harrison
has some documents in Shavian on his website (or had, last time I
checked -- I can't reach his server right now). Simon Barne, IIRC, used
to have advertisement spoofs converted to Shavian (but his site is
apparently empty, now).
Feel free to make your own!
> Or perhaps a unicode editor (all those ampersand/hash/semicolons pee
> me off)?
I've used UniPad ( http://www.unipad.org/ ), but that only lets you
edit 1000-character documents unless you either (a) register it for $99
or (b) live with only starting it for 10 minutes at a time (since the
1000-character limit doesn't kick in until then).
You don't necessarily need a Unicode editor for Shavian, though.
Actually, this is a tricky situation, since you have to decide on which
encoding to use; I would venture that most people have fonts that
include only "ASCII Shavian", which you can type in a normal editor
(e.g. "SEvWn" for "Shavian"). I've seen fonts which make use of the
code points in the ConScript Unicode Registry (I think Scott used
those), but not everyone has them. Then there's the matter that the
CSUR Shavian assignment is considered obsolete, as far as I know, since
the Unicode Consortium has allocated real live code points to Shavian --
but they're in the Secondary Multilingual Plane (Plane 1), which isn't
supported by all operating systems or applications, let alone by many
fonts yet (I imagine).
> I want to build a website (got the space reserved) to put up this
> standard, but if you know of anything that might help, please tell
> me.
If you have stuff about Shavian, you're welcome to host it on
shavian.org; this applies to anyone in this group.
My only condition is that you keep the space use to a reasonable
amount. I'm currently paying for 10 MB of space and I'd prefer not to
get close to that. (The account is currently using more than that,
which is why the forums have got to go, unfortunately. I'm also using
around 6 MB for personal stuff related to conlangs at the moment.)
I know that's not very much, but I'm not currently prepared to pay more
for the account as I don't have *that* much spare cash. If any of you
want to chip in, that would be much appreciated -- for example, with
the host I'm using, 50 MB cost $83 a year, 100 MB cost $155 a year, and
300 MB cost $299 a year. I'm currently paying $36 a year, so somebody
else would have to come up with the difference (or at least most of it)
for me to be willing to upgrade.
Or you can start a competing site at a different domain if you want.
Heck, host it on Tripod or GeoCities for free (and live with ad
banners).
But please keep it updated yourself; Shavian sites seem to have this
habit of disappearing after a year or three.
I'd love to see more and diverse content on shavian.org, but I don't
have the skill, time, or inclination to produce it myself, so I've been
depending on you all. He who complaineth about there being no content,
let him submit the first document. (And he who submitteth much data,
let him open his own web site or help pay for the space. Sorry I can't
offer more than this at the moment, but TANSTAAFL.)
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2402 |
From: Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:44am
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Joseph Smith incurred the wrath of Bob on Oct 23, by saying
>Hi
>
>I have already keyed in one thousand words, and am well willing to do
>more.
I can have 128,000 words for you when I get a spare moment tomorrow or
on the weekend :-) I won't have personally approved too many of them,
though :-)
>1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
>former, but I say the latter.
I'm American, so for me it is 'A' (at).
>
>2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i' or 'I'?
>Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
I say the latter. Sounds like your dictionary is based on RP.
>
>3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
Me too, though I may sometimes say "sher" (rhymes with "her").
>>
>> How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing dictionaries?
My Shavian converter is based on the CMU North American Pronouncing
Dictionary, for example (this is where I got the 128,000 words I
mentioned. I wasn't entirely happy with the results, though -- well, I
wasn't happy with the original dictionary, although my program did the
best with it that it could. What would actually be useful is a simple
list of the N,000 most common English words, since carting around a file
of 128,000 mostly useless words and their pronunciations is a big pain.
It would be nice to have a trimmed-down version.
>For
>> example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
You sure it's for American? The official download source is a .uk
address. I guess the way to tell would be to look at some
discriminating entries....
--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz
|
|
| 2403 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:59am
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
On 23 Oct 2003 at 23:44, Bob Schmertz wrote:
> My Shavian converter is based on the CMU North American Pronouncing
> Dictionary
>
> > For example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
>
> You sure it's for American? The official download source is a .uk
> address.
Ah -- then that was probably the British source I had in mind, with the
CMU list being the American one. Apologies for the mix-up.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2404 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 0:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
> On 23 Oct 2003 at 19:25, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should be
> > our arbitrator, for determining preferred pronunciation. Dissenters
> > speak now? Or forever hold your peace.
>
> I agree in principle. It depends on the dictionary :)
>
> I would prefer one that corresponds to the dialect in _Androcles_ (that
> is, rhotic, but that differentiates between e.g. father/bother,
> grass/mass, Mary/marry/merry, etc.).
Then try my preferred dictionary for Androcles spelling reference - the
American Heritage dictionary. It uses rhotic spellings but differentiates
nicely between all the sounds in Shavian (including ado/up, err/array,
if/eat, all the "problem pairs").
www.dictionary.com uses this dictionary along with an excellent
pronunciation guide so it's easy to check for help on Shavian spelling
simply by typing in a word.
It's not as annoyingly un-rhotic as Oxford but not as overly phonetically
simplistic as Merriam-Webster.
Hugh B
|
|
| 2405 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:11pm
Subject: Re: Websites
|
| |
On Friday, Oct 24, 2003, at 05:59 Europe/Paris, Philip Newton wrote:
>
> Did you have a look at some of the links? For example, Scott Harrison
> has some documents in Shavian on his website (or had, last time I
> checked -- I can't reach his server right now). Simon Barne, IIRC, used
> to have advertisement spoofs converted to Shavian (but his site is
> apparently empty, now).
>
Currently you can reach my page directly at:
http://laurel.mithrandir.com/Shavian/Shavian.html
Normally hitting www.mithrandir.com or mithrandir.com will resolve to
the laurel.mithrandir.com machine or the washingtondc.mithrandir.com
machine, but randomly. Therefore, you are probably having that resolve
to washingtondc which seems to be off the air right now. The
washingtondc is a little less available than the other, but they both
have the same data on them.
> Feel free to make your own!
>
>> Or perhaps a unicode editor (all those ampersand/hash/semicolons pee
>> me off)?
>
> I've used UniPad ( http://www.unipad.org/ ), but that only lets you
> edit 1000-character documents unless you either (a) register it for $99
> or (b) live with only starting it for 10 minutes at a time (since the
> 1000-character limit doesn't kick in until then).
>
On my web page there are some references to programs that run on
Windows that do Unicode. However, this was research I did a few years
ago. I use a Mac which comes with TextEdit which is a Unicode editor.
> You don't necessarily need a Unicode editor for Shavian, though.
> Actually, this is a tricky situation, since you have to decide on which
> encoding to use; I would venture that most people have fonts that
> include only "ASCII Shavian", which you can type in a normal editor
> (e.g. "SEvWn" for "Shavian"). I've seen fonts which make use of the
> code points in the ConScript Unicode Registry (I think Scott used
> those), but not everyone has them. Then there's the matter that the
> CSUR Shavian assignment is considered obsolete, as far as I know, since
> the Unicode Consortium has allocated real live code points to Shavian
> --
> but they're in the Secondary Multilingual Plane (Plane 1), which isn't
> supported by all operating systems or applications, let alone by many
> fonts yet (I imagine).
>
In general I would advise that you use UTF-8 for web pages and
documents. Unicode has finally assigned code points for Shavian, so we
should all be using them. I still have not converted my documents over
from the old ConScript code points. But using the appropriate fonts
you should be able to view my documents. Eventually I will get enough
time to convert them.
There are some issues with displaying Shavian at their proper code
points at the present because of lack of support in all operating
systems, etc. However, I imagine these will be resolved over time as
Unicode 4.0 becomes more popular.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2406 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:20pm
Subject: Re: Websites
|
| |
Hi Joseph
Hugh Birkenhead (Mixsynth)is the owner and responsible for the
amazing Ikon board facility, which allows us to post our messages in
Shavian Script
at www.shavian.org
Perhaps you didn't notice this useful forum before?
The forum facility is extremely well designed, but just lately
languishes through lack of use, but feel free to post your word list
there.
Hugh is also our most active and also our most internet knowledgable
member.
Regards, Paul V.
______________attached______________________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> Message to all!
>
> Who owns shavian.org, and why is it so uninspiring?
>
> That should be our central hub, and yet it is a boring grey slate
> with not so much as a slither or shavian text! Can't we either get
it
> going, or get a new website?
>
> Also, does anyone have a website/page all in shavian? Or perhaps a
> unicode editor (all those ampersand/hash/semicolons pee me off)?
>
> I want to build a website (got the space reserved) to put up this
> standard, but if you know of anything that might help, please tell
me.
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
|
|
| 2407 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Websites
|
| |
Hi Philip
My Mistake. I thought Hugh owned the site, as well the forums.
It would be nice to keep the forums. Do you need contributions to
keep it afloat.
I use it a lot.
Please consider yourself included in laudatory comment from one and
all.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2003 at 21:31, Joseph Smith wrote:
>
> > Who owns shavian.org,
>
> I do.
>
> > and why is it so uninspiring?
>
> Because I'm not that great on providing content and nobody else has
> volunteered so far.
>
> I initially posted to this group about it saying I'd make the
domain
> available but others would have to provide content. So far, nobody
has,
> so it's just a link list and some forums where people can talk in
and
> about Shavian.
>
> (The forums will, unfortunately, have to come down soon because
they're
> taking up more space than I've been paying for.)
>
> > That should be our central hub, and yet it is a boring grey slate
> > with not so much as a slither or shavian text!
>
> Did you look at the forums (
> http://shavian.org/hugh/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi )? I admit I
haven't
> gone there for ages, but I'm fairly sure there is text in Shavian
> there.
>
> > Can't we either get it going, or get a new website?
>
> Remember that we're all volunteers around here. This "we" includes
> yourself.
>
> If you want to provide content, you're more than welcome to; the
> contact address is listed near the top of the Shavian web site.
> (Including "Shavian" in the subject of the email would help so I
don't
> accidentally delete it amidst the volumes of spam I receive.)
>
> Don't expect other people to do stuff. (I don't, either, at least
as
> regards the web site. So I live with its simply being a list of
links.)
>
> > Also, does anyone have a website/page all in shavian?
>
> Did you have a look at some of the links? For example, Scott
Harrison
> has some documents in Shavian on his website (or had, last time I
> checked -- I can't reach his server right now). Simon Barne, IIRC,
used
> to have advertisement spoofs converted to Shavian (but his site is
> apparently empty, now).
>
> Feel free to make your own!
>
> > Or perhaps a unicode editor (all those ampersand/hash/semicolons
pee
> > me off)?
>
> I've used UniPad ( http://www.unipad.org/ ), but that only lets you
> edit 1000-character documents unless you either (a) register it for
$99
> or (b) live with only starting it for 10 minutes at a time (since
the
> 1000-character limit doesn't kick in until then).
>
> You don't necessarily need a Unicode editor for Shavian, though.
> Actually, this is a tricky situation, since you have to decide on
which
> encoding to use; I would venture that most people have fonts that
> include only "ASCII Shavian", which you can type in a normal editor
> (e.g. "SEvWn" for "Shavian"). I've seen fonts which make use of the
> code points in the ConScript Unicode Registry (I think Scott used
> those), but not everyone has them. Then there's the matter that the
> CSUR Shavian assignment is considered obsolete, as far as I know,
since
> the Unicode Consortium has allocated real live code points to
Shavian --
> but they're in the Secondary Multilingual Plane (Plane 1), which
isn't
> supported by all operating systems or applications, let alone by
many
> fonts yet (I imagine).
>
> > I want to build a website (got the space reserved) to put up this
> > standard, but if you know of anything that might help, please tell
> > me.
>
> If you have stuff about Shavian, you're welcome to host it on
> shavian.org; this applies to anyone in this group.
>
> My only condition is that you keep the space use to a reasonable
> amount. I'm currently paying for 10 MB of space and I'd prefer not
to
> get close to that. (The account is currently using more than that,
> which is why the forums have got to go, unfortunately. I'm also
using
> around 6 MB for personal stuff related to conlangs at the moment.)
>
> I know that's not very much, but I'm not currently prepared to pay
more
> for the account as I don't have *that* much spare cash. If any of
you
> want to chip in, that would be much appreciated -- for example,
with
> the host I'm using, 50 MB cost $83 a year, 100 MB cost $155 a year,
and
> 300 MB cost $299 a year. I'm currently paying $36 a year, so
somebody
> else would have to come up with the difference (or at least most of
it)
> for me to be willing to upgrade.
>
> Or you can start a competing site at a different domain if you
want.
> Heck, host it on Tripod or GeoCities for free (and live with ad
> banners).
>
> But please keep it updated yourself; Shavian sites seem to have
this
> habit of disappearing after a year or three.
>
> I'd love to see more and diverse content on shavian.org, but I
don't
> have the skill, time, or inclination to produce it myself, so I've
been
> depending on you all. He who complaineth about there being no
content,
> let him submit the first document. (And he who submitteth much
data,
> let him open his own web site or help pay for the space. Sorry I
can't
> offer more than this at the moment, but TANSTAAFL.)
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2408 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:38pm
Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
Hi Everone
Hmmn.
No Dissenters at this moment. Although it appears, everyone has own
favorite English Dictionary.
Resolved. Let us use a Dictionary, as our final arbitrator, for
determining preferred pronunciation.
Please refer to Dictionary, whenever possible. (ie. AH, MW, Web IW,
NYC, Peng, Gage, Ox, dic.com)
Dissenters please hold your peace.
Regards, Paul V.
____________attached____________________-
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
>
>
> > On 23 Oct 2003 at 19:25, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should
be
> > > our arbitrator, for determining preferred pronunciation.
Dissenters
> > > speak now? Or forever hold your peace.
> >
> > I agree in principle. It depends on the dictionary :)
> >
> > I would prefer one that corresponds to the dialect in _Androcles_
(that
> > is, rhotic, but that differentiates between e.g. father/bother,
> > grass/mass, Mary/marry/merry, etc.).
>
> Then try my preferred dictionary for Androcles spelling reference -
the
> American Heritage dictionary. It uses rhotic spellings but
differentiates
> nicely between all the sounds in Shavian (including ado/up,
err/array,
> if/eat, all the "problem pairs").
>
> www.dictionary.com uses this dictionary along with an excellent
> pronunciation guide so it's easy to check for help on Shavian
spelling
> simply by typing in a word.
>
> It's not as annoyingly un-rhotic as Oxford but not as overly
phonetically
> simplistic as Merriam-Webster.
>
> Hugh B
|
|
| 2409 |
From: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@d...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:45pm
Subject: shavian.org
|
| |
paul vandenbrink wrote:
> My Mistake. I thought Hugh owned the site, as well the forums.
No; he operates the forums, but I own the shavian.org domain.
> It would be nice to keep the forums. Do you need contributions to
> keep it afloat.
If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes. Otherwise
they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period expires.
(Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the end of
October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched over to the
higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was exceeding my
space allocation.)
Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just that
things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for the space
the domain currently uses.
I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be looking for at
least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in contributions in
order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the 10MB
space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the Ikonboard.
Pledges and contributions are welcome.
> I use it a lot.
> Please consider yourself included in laudatory comment from one and
> all.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
|
|
| 2410 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:10pm
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to shavian
|
| |
Hi Joseph
I checked out the A's and B's and got the following alternate Shavian
spellings. I will check these variations with NYC.
able Ebl Ebal
am Am am especially in the mos common construct "I'm"
among amuN
an An an
animal Animal Anamal
apple Apl Apal
arrange DEnJ xEnJ
arrive DFv arFv
before bifP bafP
began bigAn bIgAn
behind bihFnd bIhFnd
believe bilIv balIv
body bodI bYdI
box boks bYx
boy boq bq
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, shavian@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
> group.
>
> File : /Wordlist.txt
> Uploaded by : j_brg <stetsdigs@h...>
> Description : My spellings, not final! Just paste into Word,
convert to a table, and format second column to Ghoti. (Easy?)
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/Wordlist.txt
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> j_brg <stetsdigs@h...>
|
|
| 2411 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:26pm
Subject: Save www.shavian.org for another year
|
| |
Hi Phil
I guess I can pledge $20 U.S.
Please send note to pvandenbrink@s... on where I can mail or
transfer money.
Regards, Paul V.
____________________attached___________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Newton, Philip" <philip.newton@d...>
wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > My Mistake. I thought Hugh owned the site, as well the forums.
>
> No; he operates the forums, but I own the shavian.org domain.
>
> > It would be nice to keep the forums. Do you need contributions to
> > keep it afloat.
>
> If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes.
Otherwise
> they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period
expires.
> (Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the
end of
> October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched
over to the
> higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was
exceeding my
> space allocation.)
>
> Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just
that
> things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for
the space
> the domain currently uses.
>
> I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be
looking for at
> least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in
contributions in
> order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the
10MB
> space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the
Ikonboard.
>
> Pledges and contributions are welcome.
>
> > I use it a lot.
> > Please consider yourself included in laudatory comment from one
and
> > all.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
> All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
|
|
| 2412 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:13pm
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to shavian
|
| |
Thanks for your input
able Ebl Ebal <-done, do we agree 'm' 'n' and 'l' have
schwa?
am Am am <-both dic.com and my own dic give 'Am', what
about 'Fm' for 'I'm'?
among amuN ?? <-is there a change, or is this an error?
an An an <-perhaps both 'a' and 'an' should have
stressed and unstressed forms?
animal Animal Anamal <-done, the unstressed vowel is unclear
apple Apl Apal <-done
arrange DEnJ xEnJ <-the first vowel should stay unstressed
arrive DFv arFv <-as above, i find dic.com and my own dic
agree
before bifP bafP <-done, see 'animal'
began bigAn bIgAn <-\ both dic.com and my dic give a short 'i'
-but i can understand your point well
behind bihFnd bIhFnd <-/ a case of stress, i can't decide it
believe bilIv balIv <-done, vowel unclear like 'animal'
and 'before'
body bodI bYdI <-cot/caught merger? do you have both sounds?
should we keep maximum differences? a big issue i feel
box boks bYx <-as above
boy boq bq <-done, my mistake
I hope others agree with the changes we've made, and perhaps we could
talk a little on those three others. The cot/caught issue is very
difficult, but the other two are just a matter of stress and they
shouldn't cause much difficulty if we talk them over.
If these are the changes from a and b, then things aren't too bad. I
think we are already over 85% in agreement. Most of these spellings
were made from a British dictionary with a little of my own input,
but now I am referring to dic.com in order to gain a better american
view.
Thanks
Joseph
|
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