|
|
|
| 2413 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
|
Hi Paul,
Sorry for using unphonetic symbols. I now carry in my wallet
the shavian key of letter names with me. So that when I go
to the library and write articles for this group and be clearer.
1. I pronounce 'grass' as 'gag'-'roar'-'ash'-'so'
2. I pronounce the last letter 'y' as an 'eat'
3. And I pronounce 'sure' with 'array' and I pronounce 'shore' with 'or'
hope this helps,
Carl paul vandenbrink wrote: Hi Carl & Joseph
Hey Carl. Can you use use the Shaw letters or provide more samples.
I don't know how uhr and ohr would be pronounced by you.
I think Joseph is using a dictionary where the pronunciation is
based on some version of British RP pronunciation.
1. I pronounce 'grass' with 'ae' (A) sound.
2. I pronounce words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' with
an "ee" (I) sound'?
> 3. 'sure' does not rhyme with 'shore' for me.
Sure is Sx or sher. It rhymes with surge, ar=ray, urge and the
British pronunciation of "err".
As for working on your the proposed standard American pronunciation
word list in Shaw, I have already put a small list on Hugh's
bulletin (Ikon) board at www.shavian.org.
Why don't you do the same with your 1000 words?
Cut and paste your dictionary list into a new topic posting over
there.
As well as being easier to access, it allows the originator to edit
his post. You can break it up into letters. (Thanks Star) Do all the
A words to start. Just for example.
Once you have it there I will check all your words, and point out
any errors or differences from my pronunciation that I find.
My accent is Mid-western and Stodgy, quite middle of the road.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton wrote:
> Hi Joseph,
>
> 1. The vowel in 'grass' in my accent group is a 'ae' like
in 'cat' or 'at'
> 2. For words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' in my accent
group end in an 'ee' sound.
> 3. In my accent group 'sure' is pronounced 'shuhr' and 'shore'
is pronounced 'shohr'.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Carl
> Joseph Smith wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have already keyed in one thousand words, and am well willing to
do
> more. What I need is input from other people. I want to know how
you
> speak so that my spellings are not based on only one dictionary
and
> one person.
>
> If you would like the file, please give me your email adress, it
is
> currently Word Document format, but be warned I'll pester you for
> your thoughts.
>
> Several askings first though on your preferences:
>
> 1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
> former, but I say the latter.
>
> 2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i'
or 'I'?
> Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
>
> 3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
>
> I need input from everybody!
>
> By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better
name.
It
> gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
> squish variation underfoot.
>
> Thanks in anticipation
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton"
> wrote:
> > On 22 Oct 2003 at 22:31, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree
on
> a
> > > Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> > > Other suggestions?
> >
> > How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing
dictionaries?
> For
> > example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
> I've
> > heard of a similar effort from the UK which could be used for
> British.
> > That would save the effort of keying in thousands of
pronunciations
> > oneself.
>
>
> > Cheers,
> > Philip
> > --
> > Philip Newton
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
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|
| 2414 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:42pm
Subject: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
|
Hi Folks,
In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
Mr. Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something
to the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He
suggested some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should
concentrate on Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use
vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.
This suggestion in up in the air.
best regards,
Carl
Do you Yahoo!?
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|
|
| 2415 |
From:  <adsl413593@t...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:30pm
Subject: Betr: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
When we look at the Quickscript manual, (you can get it from the Read_Alphabet
group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet ) Read suggests this,
and even more.
Then again Quickscript is actually full of abbreviations, and it might take
a while to learn them, but it really saves a great deal of work, and the
words will still be recognisable.
For those of you here who don't know: Quickscript was developed by Kinsley
Read, who developed Shavian first. Quickscript can be seen as an improvement
of Shavian. Some of the characters are quite the same, some are different.
The best source of information for Quickscript is still Mr. Read's original
manual, which you can get from the group. There is very little other material
available on the web, I probably have the only in-depth website about it
(which also deals with a method to my Quickscript typing on the computer
easier).
You can view the website at http://quickscript.teraiten.vze.com
I believe it could still use some work. But I placed it there mainly so people
who are new to Quickscript (or Shavian) can quickly get their hands on useful
materials.
Ewout
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
>Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Hi Folks,
In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr. Read
mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the effect
of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four of which
we currently
>se) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these abbreviations
and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.
This suggestion in up in the air.
best regards,
Carl
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!
>
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2416 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling
|
| |
|
Hi Paul,
My vote -- Encarta.
thanks,
Carl paul vandenbrink wrote: Hi Everone
Hmmn.
No Dissenters at this moment. Although it appears, everyone has own
favorite English Dictionary.
Resolved. Let us use a Dictionary, as our final arbitrator, for
determining preferred pronunciation.
Please refer to Dictionary, whenever possible. (ie. AH, MW, Web IW,
NYC, Peng, Gage, Ox, dic.com)
Dissenters please hold your peace.
Regards, Paul V.
____________attached____________________-
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Newton"
>
>
> > On 23 Oct 2003 at 19:25, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should
be
> > > our arbitrator, for determining
preferred pronunciation.
Dissenters
> > > speak now? Or forever hold your peace.
> >
> > I agree in principle. It depends on the dictionary :)
> >
> > I would prefer one that corresponds to the dialect in _Androcles_
(that
> > is, rhotic, but that differentiates between e.g. father/bother,
> > grass/mass, Mary/marry/merry, etc.).
>
> Then try my preferred dictionary for Androcles spelling reference -
the
> American Heritage dictionary. It uses rhotic spellings but
differentiates
> nicely between all the sounds in Shavian (including ado/up,
err/array,
> if/eat, all the "problem pairs").
>
> www.dictionary.com uses this dictionary along with an excellent
> pronunciation guide so it's easy to check for help on Shavian
spelling
> simply by typing in a word.
>
> It's not as annoyingly un-rhotic as Oxford but not as overly
phonetically
> simplistic as Merriam-Webster.
>
> Hugh B
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|
|
| 2417 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:57pm
Subject: Re: Betr: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Hello
I went to your site and thought it was very good. it was well made
and very presentable. But it said two things about shavian which
aren't strictly true.
The first was about the shape of the letters. There is no real
problem with most people reading shavian. Use makes reading quicker
and easier, just like with latin, and no mix-up between the shapes
occurs. Only readers with perception problems confuse 'p' and 'b' in
latin, and the same is true of shavian.
The second is about the four stress letters. 'Air' is a distinct
sound with different lip shape, 'up' is a non-r sound that is much
fuller that schwa, 'err' and 'array' are similar, but it is useful
for british speakers (and others) for whom the word 'murmur' has two
different vowels.
I hate to become argumentative, but quikscript is often touted as an
improvement on shavian, id est Read's second try. But this is not
true, as quikscript represents a throwing out of the ideology of
shavian in favour of short term gains. It looks pretty ridiculous in
the computer age to insist that a cursive script is better than a
printed one.
Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that
someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many
parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in
all others it is prserved by an aging population. Within fifty years
at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.
I am sorry for saying this, but it beats me why you stick to
quikscript. I fail to see the attraction.
Thanks
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, adsl413593@t... wrote:
> When we look at the Quickscript manual, (you can get it from the
Read_Alphabet
> group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet ) Read
suggests this,
> and even more.
>
> Then again Quickscript is actually full of abbreviations, and it
might take
> a while to learn them, but it really saves a great deal of work,
and the
> words will still be recognisable.
>
> For those of you here who don't know: Quickscript was developed by
Kinsley
> Read, who developed Shavian first. Quickscript can be seen as an
improvement
> of Shavian. Some of the characters are quite the same, some are
different.
> The best source of information for Quickscript is still Mr. Read's
original
> manual, which you can get from the group. There is very little
other material
> available on the web, I probably have the only in-depth website
about it
> (which also deals with a method to my Quickscript typing on the
computer
> easier).
>
> You can view the website at http://quickscript.teraiten.vze.com
>
> I believe it could still use some work. But I placed it there
mainly so people
> who are new to Quickscript (or Shavian) can quickly get their hands
on useful
> materials.
>
> Ewout
>
> >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> >To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> >From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
> >Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >Subject: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
> >Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >Hi Folks,
>
> In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
Mr. Read
> mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the
effect
> of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four
of which
> we currently
> >se) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these
abbreviations
> and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.
>
> This suggestion in up in the air.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!
> >
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
|
|
| 2418 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:24am
Subject: Re: shavian.org
|
| |
On Friday, Oct 24, 2003, at 17:45 Europe/Paris, Newton, Philip wrote:
> If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes. Otherwise
> they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period expires.
> (Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the end of
> October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched over
> to the
> higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was exceeding
> my
> space allocation.)
>
> Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just
> that
> things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for the
> space
> the domain currently uses.
>
> I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be looking
> for at
> least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in contributions in
> order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the
> 10MB
> space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the
> Ikonboard.
>
> Pledges and contributions are welcome.
>
I run my own servers. Perhaps you would like me to host shavian.org
for you. I would not charge for the server space nor for DNS services
if you want me to handle that as well. Of course there may be slight
downtimes on one of the servers (but hopefully never both). I would
need to know what capabilities you need for it because I severely limit
what can hit my servers (for example ftp is not currently permitted
into my machines).
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2419 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:29am
Subject: Re: shavian.org
|
| |
On Saturday, Oct 25, 2003, at 11:24 Europe/Paris, Scott Harrison wrote:
>
> On Friday, Oct 24, 2003, at 17:45 Europe/Paris, Newton, Philip wrote:
>
>> If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes. Otherwise
>> they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period expires.
>> (Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the end
>> of
>> October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched over
>> to the
>> higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was exceeding
>> my
>> space allocation.)
>>
>> Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just
>> that
>> things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for the
>> space
>> the domain currently uses.
>>
>> I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be looking
>> for at
>> least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in contributions
>> in
>> order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the
>> 10MB
>> space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the
>> Ikonboard.
>>
>> Pledges and contributions are welcome.
>>
> I run my own servers. Perhaps you would like me to host shavian.org
> for you. I would not charge for the server space nor for DNS services
> if you want me to handle that as well. Of course there may be slight
> downtimes on one of the servers (but hopefully never both). I would
> need to know what capabilities you need for it because I severely limit
> what can hit my servers (for example ftp is not currently permitted
> into my machines).
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
>
>
Sorry to followup but I also wanted to mention that I run the mailman
software package as well, so should be able to have a mailing list
hosted on shavian.org as well. This would allow us to move to that
list vice staying on yahoo if that were desired.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2420 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:00pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian includes
vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew the
vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if we
have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
differently)
--Star
--- carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr.
> Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to
> the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested
> some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should concentrate on
> Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels when the
> consonant sets get confusing.
>
> This suggestion in up in the air.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2421 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:38pm
Subject: Resources for Accent regarding Spelling
|
| |
I think it is necessary to obtain detailed information about american
accents in order to decide whether cot/caught pin/pen and others need
to be marked as distinct or not-distinct.
I have found what is probly the best website no this matter, it is
the TELSUR Project and Penn Uni. A few good maps and pages that are
easy to understand.
Though I may prejudge any conclusions a reader comes to, I can only
say that for me it has reinforced the belief that we must carry
maximum distinctions in our spelling.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/
It will always be difficult to please everybody, but at least if we
have to make a decision for one spelling or the other, we can back it
up with scientific data.
Thanks
Joseph
|
|
| 2422 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:49pm
Subject: Shavian becoming Hebrew?
|
| |
Hi Star
I think you misconstrued Carl here. He is not calling for removal of
the embedded vowel letters in all small one syllable words.
I believe that he just wants to increase the list of standard
abbreviations from 4 to a maximum of 20, based on using a single
letter.
Modern Hebrew actually does use some of the letters to indicate vowel
sounds in stressed positions. Say for example if vowel sound ends a
word. Unhappily many
Hebrew letters can be read up to four different ways. Usually the
primary representation is consonantal, but the secondary
representation could be a vowel or another consonant sound
altogether. Hebrew letter can be optionally marked by dots to
indicate alternate pronunciation, but typically, these annotated
letters are only used by school children and in their books.
Unannotated Hebrew could be the basis of an extremely effective
cipher. as there is almost no redundancy, to speak of.
For an alphabet with only 22 letters (+ 5 word final forms), it is
quite difficult to learn.
This is incompatible with our intention to make Shavian totally clear
with a single letter for every sound. And we do want Shavian to be
easy to learn. Easy enough that you do not ever have to refer back to
T.O.
I have personal interest in how Hewbrew uses the Schwa and Dots, so
effectively in a way that further minimizes the number of Vowel
letters which are needed to completely represent the sound of word.
But there is something here in Hebrew, that might be interesting to
apply to English.
Consider that if we had 2 or more acceptible pronunciations for an
English word, and they are spelt slightly differently, It might be
possible to use the shortest/simpliest/most logical representation,
all other things being equal.
For example, for a number of English words, the Schwa is commonly
used in speech to replace unstressed short vowels, but enunciating
the original short vowel sound provides a clearly understandable and
acceptable if somewhat stilted pronunciation.
banana = bAnAna or banAna
arrive = DFv or arFv
behind = bahFnd or bihFnd
So to eliminate variation in the representation of these short vague
sounds, we just make it a convention, to use Schwa in all of the
indistinct cases.
We need to develop some conventions, stylistic rules, to simplify
writing Shavian, rather than having to always chose one valid
representation over the other. I want to escape this quagmire of
vowel sounds, and the various levels of vowel distinctiveness.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian
includes
> vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
> frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew the
> vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if we
> have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
> confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
> differently)
>
> --Star
>
> --- carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
Mr.
> > Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something
to
> > the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested
> > some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should
concentrate on
> > Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels when
the
> > consonant sets get confusing.
> >
> > This suggestion in up in the air.
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2423 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Shavian becoming Hebrew?
|
| |
Hi Everyone
Mea Culpae
Just to clarify my perverse interest in the tiny Schwa.
And I do have a strong interest in maximizing Schwa use.
I find Schwas in 3 distinct locations.
1. Stand-alone syllables, usually at the beginning of word. (i.e.
ado, among, along, a)
2. ending a syllable. (i.e. idea, tomato, banana, Coca Cola)
3. making a consonant into a standalone syllable. (i.e. bottom,
blossom, listen, foxes, patience)
Why is such a small sound, a minimal vowel sound in fact, always
found at vowel boundaries?
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> I think you misconstrued Carl here. He is not calling for removal
of
> the embedded vowel letters in all small one syllable words.
> I believe that he just wants to increase the list of standard
> abbreviations from 4 to a maximum of 20, based on using a single
> letter.
>
> Modern Hebrew actually does use some of the letters to indicate
vowel
> sounds in stressed positions. Say for example if vowel sound ends a
> word. Unhappily many
> Hebrew letters can be read up to four different ways. Usually the
> primary representation is consonantal, but the secondary
> representation could be a vowel or another consonant sound
> altogether. Hebrew letter can be optionally marked by dots to
> indicate alternate pronunciation, but typically, these annotated
> letters are only used by school children and in their books.
> Unannotated Hebrew could be the basis of an extremely effective
> cipher. as there is almost no redundancy, to speak of.
> For an alphabet with only 22 letters (+ 5 word final forms), it is
> quite difficult to learn.
>
> This is incompatible with our intention to make Shavian totally
clear
> with a single letter for every sound. And we do want Shavian to be
> easy to learn. Easy enough that you do not ever have to refer back
to
> T.O.
>
> I have personal interest in how Hewbrew uses the Schwa and Dots, so
> effectively in a way that further minimizes the number of Vowel
> letters which are needed to completely represent the sound of word.
>
> But there is something here in Hebrew, that might be interesting to
> apply to English.
> Consider that if we had 2 or more acceptible pronunciations for an
> English word, and they are spelt slightly differently, It might be
> possible to use the shortest/simpliest/most logical representation,
> all other things being equal.
>
> For example, for a number of English words, the Schwa is commonly
> used in speech to replace unstressed short vowels, but enunciating
> the original short vowel sound provides a clearly understandable
and
> acceptable if somewhat stilted pronunciation.
>
> banana = bAnAna or banAna
> arrive = DFv or arFv
> behind = bahFnd or bihFnd
>
> So to eliminate variation in the representation of these short
vague
> sounds, we just make it a convention, to use Schwa in all of the
> indistinct cases.
>
> We need to develop some conventions, stylistic rules, to simplify
> writing Shavian, rather than having to always chose one valid
> representation over the other. I want to escape this quagmire of
> vowel sounds, and the various levels of vowel distinctiveness.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
>
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian
> includes
> > vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
> > frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew
the
> > vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if
we
> > have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
> > confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
> > differently)
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of
what
> Mr.
> > > Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian.
Something
> to
> > > the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He
suggested
> > > some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should
> concentrate on
> > > Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels
when
> the
> > > consonant sets get confusing.
> > >
> > > This suggestion in up in the air.
> > >
> > > best regards,
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> >
> >
> > =====
> > From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
> Hakuin
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
|
|
| 2424 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shavian becoming Hebrew?
|
| |
> 2. ending a syllable. (i.e. idea, tomato, banana, Coca Cola)
Tomato ends in a long o where I come from. :)
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
|
|
| 2425 |
From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Joseph (stetsdigs@hotmail.com) writes:
>>Also
the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that someone
as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts the
distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all others
it is preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
sounds will cease to be heard.<<
Hey, I resemble that remark!
My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic feature in
American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined to
disappear, along with remaining case and tense distinctions (including
plurals), and much else. It's my only phonemic contrast not represented
in the original Shaw Alphabet. It seems simple enough to write the
sound as 'hw', though I think it's a single phoneme rather than a
cluster (something you can always argue about in English phonetics till
the whippets and the wombats come home).
GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course he did
not live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
V, who as a southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
distinction at all.
I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both born
1906), who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage
of western Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely
Scots (not sure from where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but
I do not.
"A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable micromyzont
rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit surprised
that the young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as
she sucked on her microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ -
"What'll I do / When you / etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint
sufficiently that I could not hear his rendition of the sound.
Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever discussed how
you represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h' (does
not contrast 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you
want to analyze it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for
English speakers (me, anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian
has fairly high contrast load for these three phonemes.
As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates of "write
Shavian the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent
reference to Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples
scribbled on it, used as a bookmark.
Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee
|
|
| 2426 |
From: Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@c...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:29am
Subject: Re: Betr: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Joseph Smith wrote:
> I hate to become argumentative, but quikscript is often touted as an
> improvement on shavian, id est Read's second try. But this is not
> true, as quikscript represents a throwing out of the ideology of
> shavian in favour of short term gains.
I don't know what this means. My understanding from Read himself was
that he made the changes that resulted in Quikscript as a result of the
trials in Shavian.
> It looks pretty ridiculous in
> the computer age to insist that a cursive script is better than a
> printed one.
I don't know about you, but I mainly use Quikscript to write for myself
with a pen. Even in this "computer age, I don't think Bic is in danger
of pen sales crashing in the near future. I certainly don't see anyone
on this site writing in Shavian even though that would be on computer.
The point is that for personal writing a script which connects letters
is very convenient for the same reason that most adults write in cursive
rather than printing. Quikscript does not mandate the connection of
letters, it just makes it possible in many cases. Since Quikscript
works fine with a computer font, I fail to see how that is ridiculous.
> Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that
> someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many
> parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in
> all others it is prserved by an aging population. Within fifty years
> at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.
That is your prediction. Perhaps, it will be correct. But in any
event, having a letter for those who use the sound, does not require you
to use it. I have noticed that those who decry "hw" are those whose own
idiolect doesn't have it.
> I am sorry for saying this, but it beats me why you stick to
> quikscript. I fail to see the attraction.
I am sorry for saying this, but it beats me why you stick to Shavian. I
fail to see the attraction.
Paige Gabhart
> When we look at the Quickscript manual, (you can get it from the
> Read_Alphabet
> > group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet ) Read
> suggests this,
> > and even more.
> >
> > Then again Quickscript is actually full of abbreviations, and it
> might take
> > a while to learn them, but it really saves a great deal of work,
> and the
> > words will still be recognisable.
> >
> > For those of you here who don't know: Quickscript was developed by
> Kinsley
> > Read, who developed Shavian first. Quickscript can be seen as an
> improvement
> > of Shavian. Some of the characters are quite the same, some are
> different.
> > The best source of information for Quickscript is still Mr. Read's
> original
> > manual, which you can get from the group. There is very little
> other material
> > available on the web, I probably have the only in-depth website
> about it
> > (which also deals with a method to my Quickscript typing on the
> computer
> > easier).
> >
> > You can view the website at http://quickscript.teraiten.vze.com
> >
> > I believe it could still use some work. But I placed it there
> mainly so people
> > who are new to Quickscript (or Shavian) can quickly get their hands
> on useful
> > materials.
> >
> > Ewout
> >
> > >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> > >To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> > >From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
> > >Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > >Subject: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
> > >Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi Folks,
> >
> > In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
> Mr. Read
> > mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the
> effect
> > of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four
> of which
> > we currently
> > >se) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these
> abbreviations
> > and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.
> >
> > This suggestion in up in the air.
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!
> > >
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
|
|
| 2427 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:58pm
Subject: Re: Shavian becoming Hebrew?
|
| |
Hi Star
Sorry about Tomato. I should have elucidated exactly which syllable
that the the Schwa could be found. It is in the first syllable in the
word Tomato. I was rushed. late for a class, again.
I corrected it below, and gave few more examples.
Just to clarify my perverse interest in the tiny Schwa.
And I do have a strong interest in maximizing Schwa use, by the way.
I seem to find Schwas in just 3 distinct locations.
1. Stand-alone syllables, usually at the beginning of word. (i.e.
ado, among, along, a)
2. ending a syllable usually at the end of word. (i.e. idea, tomato,
banana, Coca Cola), but occassionly in the first or middle syllable
of a word. (tomato, suppose, interesting (intarestiN), insulated
(insalEtad), inadvertant (inadvxtant)
3. making a consonant or consonant cluster into a standalone
syllable. (i.e. bottom, girls, whiten, lighten, picket, regarded,
blossom, listen, foxes, patience, impotence, important)
Why is such a small sound, a minimal vowel sound in fact, always
found at vowel boundaries?
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
>
> > 2. ending a syllable. (i.e. idea, tomato, banana, Coca Cola)
>
> Tomato ends in a long o where I come from. :)
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
|
|
| 2428 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:09pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Hi Joseph & Bob
While I can't really speak to the "wh" issue, let me describe a
difficulty with using \hw\.
That is how I would write the spanish name Juan. (hwYn)
which is a distnctly different sound than "w" or "wh".
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. we need to avoid diagraphs, that have 2 fifferent valid
pronunciations. I'd rather use "woe" for both "w" and "wh" ot create
a new letter.
Regards, Paul V.
++++++++++++++++++++++attached+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Joseph (stetsdigs@h...) writes:
>
> >>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised
that someone
> as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts
the
> distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all
others it is
> preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
sounds will cease to
> be heard.<<
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark!
>
> My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic feature
in
> American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined to
disappear, along
> with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals), and
much else.
> It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original Shaw
Alphabet.
> It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think
it's a
> single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always
argue about in
> English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).
>
> GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course he
did not
> live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
V, who as a
> southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
distinction at all.
>
> I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both
born 1906),
> who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage of
western
> Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely Scots
(not sure from
> where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.
>
> "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable
micromyzont
> rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit
surprised that the
> young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she
sucked on her
> microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do /
When you /
> etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I could
not hear his
> rendition of the sound.
>
> Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever discussed
how you
> represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h' (does
not contrast
> 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want to
analyze
> it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English
speakers (me,
> anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high
contrast load
> for these three phonemes.
>
> As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates
of "write Shavian
> the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent reference
to
> Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled on
it, used as a
> bookmark.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee
|
|
| 2429 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
|
Hi Star,
I agree.
Carl
Star Raven wrote:
Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian includes
vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew the
vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if we
have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
differently)
--Star
--- carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr.
> Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to
> the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested
> some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should concentrate on
> Consonants like for these
abbreviations and only use vowels when the
> consonant sets get confusing.
>
> This suggestion in up in the air.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2430 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Hey Bob
I hope you didn't take the remark about 'hw' in bad spirits, I never
meant to say you were archaic! In fact I never knew that such a sound
existed until a couple of years ago when I read about it regarding
Old English. I can make the sound pretty well when I want to, but
people definitely pick it up if I drop it in conversation.
One person to find out about for you is Fred Dibnah. He is from
Lancashire, about your age, and presents tv programs in Britain on
engineering history. A steeplejack by trade, his presenting skills
are greatly enhanced by his almost unique enunciation. He is the only
person I have ever heard say 'hwole' and 'hwo'!
By the by, I'm not Cockney, but Northern/Midland in accent and
regularly miss out my 'h' (altogether, not only beginning). I don't
tend to have a problem with normal writing or Shavian, I just miss
the sound out.
With this and other things in my accent, a prostitute would properly
be called an 'Ma' in Shavian!
Thanks
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Joseph (stetsdigs@h...) writes:
>
> >>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised
that someone
> as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts
the
> distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all
others it is
> preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
sounds will cease to
> be heard.<<
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark!
>
> My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic feature
in
> American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined to
disappear, along
> with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals), and
much else.
> It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original Shaw
Alphabet.
> It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think
it's a
> single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always
argue about in
> English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).
>
> GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course he
did not
> live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
V, who as a
> southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
distinction at all.
>
> I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both
born 1906),
> who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage of
western
> Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely Scots
(not sure from
> where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.
>
> "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable
micromyzont
> rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit
surprised that the
> young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she
sucked on her
> microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do /
When you /
> etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I could
not hear his
> rendition of the sound.
>
> Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever discussed
how you
> represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h' (does
not contrast
> 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want to
analyze
> it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English
speakers (me,
> anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high
contrast load
> for these three phonemes.
>
> As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates
of "write Shavian
> the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent reference
to
> Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled on
it, used as a
> bookmark.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee
|
|
| 2431 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:51pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Hi
Juan would be 'wAn' for me. No need to worry anyway, foreign words
always cause difficulties in every language, thats why most of the
regularly used words from other languages are given english sounds.
With your own name, if I may suggest so, pronounciation must have
changed. I would say 'vAn dan briNk', but a Dutchman may say
something different. (Please enlighten me.)
Also with reference to your earlier remark about vowels: it is true
that most of our problems arise from these and not consonants. A good
understanding and partition of vowel sounds would make everything
much easier.
For me Shavian has never given a single problem concerning consonants.
Ta
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Joseph & Bob
> While I can't really speak to the "wh" issue, let me describe a
> difficulty with using \hw\.
> That is how I would write the spanish name Juan. (hwYn)
> which is a distnctly different sound than "w" or "wh".
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. we need to avoid diagraphs, that have 2 fifferent valid
> pronunciations. I'd rather use "woe" for both "w" and "wh" ot
create
> a new letter.
> Regards, Paul V.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++attached+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> > Joseph (stetsdigs@h...) writes:
> >
> > >>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised
> that someone
> > as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts
> the
> > distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all
> others it is
> > preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
> sounds will cease to
> > be heard.<<
> >
> > Hey, I resemble that remark!
> >
> > My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic
feature
> in
> > American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined
to
> disappear, along
> > with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals),
and
> much else.
> > It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original
Shaw
> Alphabet.
> > It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think
> it's a
> > single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always
> argue about in
> > English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).
> >
> > GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course
he
> did not
> > live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
> V, who as a
> > southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
> distinction at all.
> >
> > I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both
> born 1906),
> > who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage
of
> western
> > Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely
Scots
> (not sure from
> > where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.
> >
> > "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable
> micromyzont
> > rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit
> surprised that the
> > young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she
> sucked on her
> > microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do /
> When you /
> > etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I
could
> not hear his
> > rendition of the sound.
> >
> > Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever
discussed
> how you
> > represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h'
(does
> not contrast
> > 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want
to
> analyze
> > it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English
> speakers (me,
> > anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high
> contrast load
> > for these three phonemes.
> >
> > As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates
> of "write Shavian
> > the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent
reference
> to
> > Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled
on
> it, used as a
> > bookmark.
> >
> > Bob Richmond
> > Knoxville, Tennessee
|
|
| 2432 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:56pm
Subject: My Position on Shavian
|
| |
|
Hi Folks,
I would just like to make clear my current position on Shavian.
1. I don't own a computer, therefore I don't have any fonts to use.
2. I handwrite Shavian and occasionally Quickscript.
3. I prefer Shavian out of all alternative writing systems.
4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
5. I use both the dictionary and my personal pronouncation to determine spelling.
6. I agree with you folks on the need for a preferred shavian
spelling (So that there can be Shavian books
published.
7. And I think you guys are doing a good job locationing a preferred pronouncation.
best regards,
Carl
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2433 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:13pm
Subject: Re: My Position on Shavian
|
| |
On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:
> 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
>
I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that is set up in
a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts that I
have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is the format
that is used for self-publishing. And the other question is how much
does self-publishing cost?
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
| Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] |
|
| 2434 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:01pm
Subject: Moving Forward...
|
| |
How can we move forward?
What do people see as the long term goals for Shavian?
How do we achieve those goals?
What obstacles are in the way? and how do we remove those obstacles?
Have you a wishlist for Shavian in the coming weeks/months/years?
What are you doing right now to get more out of Shavian?
Can we do more?
Thanks
Joseph
|
|
| 2435 |
From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
Hi Joseph!
>>I
hope you didn't take the remark about 'hw' in bad spirits, I never
meant to say you were archaic! In fact I never knew that such a sound
existed until a couple of years ago when I read about it regarding Old
English. I can make the sound pretty well when I want to, but people
definitely pick it up if I drop it in conversation.<<
When I was a child in the late 1940's my mother (a hypercorrect Oregon
speaker who'd taught high school English in Oregon City) emphasized
phonemic control of /hw/ as a feature of cultivated speech, and
occasionally corrected my deviations from orthographically derived
pronunciation. I recall also being drilled on this by a grade school
teacher in Atlanta GA - I don't remember her dialect - who taught us a
verse that went something like:
whether the weather be cold,
or whether the weather be hot,
we'll weather the weather, whatever the weather,
whether we like it or not.
>> Fred Dibnah. He is from Lancashire, [sixtysomething], and presents tv programs in Britain on
engineering history. A steeplejack by trade, his presenting skills are
greatly enhanced by his almost unique enunciation. He is the only
person I have ever heard say 'hwole' and 'hwo'!<<
The new OED says about 'whole': "Pronunciations with initial (w) over
an area extending from Somerset to north-east Yorkshire." They don't
mention w pronunciations for 'who' or 'whore'. The OED has an article
under "WH" which will tell you more about this elusive phoneme than you
want to know.
Among younger folks in the US, the last word is spelled ho, and
pronounced exactly like the agricultural implement. Not so far from
Gothic bishop Wulfila in the 4th century, who has Jesus render "thou
shalt not commit adultery" as 'ni horinos'.
Spanish 'Juan' is phonetically rather different, though the English
speaker with a phonemic /hw/ hears the Spanish sound as the English (at
least I do. I speak some Spanish, though not with very great fluency,
and regard the phonetic usage of Mexico City as normative). I've seen
Spanish representations of American English with 'what' spelled "juát".
Didn't Lord Byron pronounce it "don jooen"?
Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee USA
|
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| 2436 |
From: <adsl413593@t...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:32am
Subject: Re: Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
|
| |
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:57:15 -0000
>Subject: Re: Betr: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
>Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>
[snip]
>It looks pretty ridiculous in the computer age to insist
>that a cursive script is better than a printed one.
I don't really type using Quickscript. I only write it with a pen. Even though
I developed stuff to make typing easier.
>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that
>someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many
>parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in
>all others it is prserved by an aging population. Within fifty years
>at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.
Now that you mention it, I never used the 'hw' character myself. I listened
to my own speech and I can't seem to find myself making a distinction between
'hw' and 'w'.
I am sorry for saying this, but it beats
>e why you stick to
quikscript. I fail to see the attraction.
I prefer Quickscript because:
1. faster handwriting
2. some characters are more than just
rotations of other ones, making them
easier to memorise. (t/d, p/b, k/g, f/v, y/w, m/n, r/l)
3. I don't have to bother figuring out whether to use up or ado and
err or air.
4. no need to use ligatures separately as I'm creating them
automatically by connecting the letters.
5. personal taste.
I used a lot of information from the 'Second Shaw.htm' file in the 'Resources'
folder of the Read Alphabet Yahoo Group. It also lists some arguments why
Quickscript should be 'better than' Shavian. But take a good look at the
last sentence of the file:
"Whether or not its enhancements and simplification, ease of reading etc.
are merits that make it superior for ordinary printed matter, remain to be
seen through usage and experimentation."
I don't really care if people use either Shavian or Quickscript. Most of
the writing is for themselves, so if I can't read it quickly, it usually
isn't a problem, because i wasn't supposed to read it anyway.
If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the font and
I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like.
I do feel though that the differences between Shavian and Quickscript are
too big for me to use both systems at the same time. That's a pity though.
What might be interesting is to create a special 'print font' for Quickscript.
Which replaces some characters by more legible, more elaborate, but similar
look-a-likes. This would make the diphthongs for example easier to read on
the screen. But they shouldn't be too different otherwise we'd have to spend
some time learning them.
For example the 'Awl' character 'Y' could be made more squareish to make
it easier to distinguish from 'on' 'o'.
Ewout Stam
/EvQt stym
>Thanks
>Joseph
|
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| 2437 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:02pm
Subject: Re: My Position on Shavian
|
| |
OpenOffice.Org is a free, open source product from the website of the
same name, and can generate PDF files. as for normal self publishing,
that depends on the publisher. Xlibris for instance is only print by
order publishing company, while others will print certain numbers for a
fee. I do agree, however, that it would aid in both our reading speeds
and to spread "the gospel of Shaw" to others to have more than one book
that's been so long out of print it's nearly impossible to find.
--Star
--- Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:
>
> > 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
> >
> I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that is set up
> in
> a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts that
> I
> have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is the
> format
> that is used for self-publishing. And the other question is how much
>
> does self-publishing cost?
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
>
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
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|
|
| 2438 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:25pm
Subject: Re: My Position on Shavian
|
| |
Hi Carl
Your position is eminently reasonable.
I use Shaw for taking notes, especially notes, I don't want to be
readily readable by someone looking over my shoulder, names, phone
numbers, passwords, swear words, private thoughts, reminders.
Any alphabet has to usable in a printed form, whether by hand,
typewriter, computer, PDA, whatever. Cursive writing may be less
valuable, but i won't count it out either.
Thanks for your encouragement on all of us developing a consistent
style/system of one spelling from among the multiple acceptable
purely phonetic spellings.
Regards, Paul V.
____________________________attached_________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I would just like to make clear my current position on Shavian.
> 1. I don't own a computer, therefore I don't have any fonts to use.
> 2. I handwrite Shavian and occasionally Quickscript.
> 3. I prefer Shavian out of all alternative writing systems.
> 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
> 5. I use both the dictionary and my personal pronouncation to
determine spelling.
> 6. I agree with you folks on the need for a preferred shavian
spelling (So that there can be Shavian books published.
> 7. And I think you guys are doing a good job locationing a
preferred pronouncation.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2439 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:37pm
Subject: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
tomato, tuhmatuh, tomahto, tommytoe. I use the first, thanks. Though it
is an unstressed syllable, in this case, I still pronounce the long O.
The shwa and shwa+r sounds are the most difficult to understand, i
believe, because they are non sounds. It's like trying to tell someone
where to put a glottal stop. It's an unsound. Like the -le or -er (-re)
at the ends of words such as able, fable, center (centre), meter
(metre), we focus on the sounds that are defined.
I suppose the question is, how do you define an undefined sound?
Along the same vein, as a child in the south, my parents, who had both
overcome accents of their own, proper speech and diction was part of my
upbringing. As such, Tennessee twang pronunciations of hoo, wut, ware,
wen, and wah became more properly who, what, where, when, and why. The
difference is not just in the vowel sound, but in the consonant that we
call /hw/ or the "voiceless w," which (hw-i-ch) seems to be the point
of contention. I included this sound in my semi-Dvorak shavian
keyboard, in the form of a small h figure, in the form of a loop below
the baseline extends into the w form. My form in askii:
/
/ <--The /w/ slash mark above the baseline
/
() <--The /h/ loop
I am still trying to decipher the font creator programs, before I will
create my own typing scheme so that I might be able to show you much
more easily. This so far is the only problem I've had with shavian, and
the only one I feel that Read fixed in quikscript. My version is simply
a more complete form of his "checkmark" that I can only guess was
derived the same way.
Any thoughts?
--Star
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
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|
|
| 2440 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
"If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments sake.
And it would show up on her screen with the form she describes.
So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as character
codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
accents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear consistent
phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Accent groups.
Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should be
able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
Comments? Anyone.
Regards, Paul V.
Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of T.O.
It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
It would be a shame that such a valuable communication tool/protocol
would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
________________attached_________________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> tomato, tuhmatuh, tomahto, tommytoe. I use the first, thanks.
Though it
> is an unstressed syllable, in this case, I still pronounce the long
O.
>
> The shwa and shwa+r sounds are the most difficult to understand, i
> believe, because they are non sounds. It's like trying to tell
someone
> where to put a glottal stop. It's an unsound. Like the -le or -er (-
re)
> at the ends of words such as able, fable, center (centre), meter
> (metre), we focus on the sounds that are defined.
>
> I suppose the question is, how do you define an undefined sound?
>
> Along the same vein, as a child in the south, my parents, who had
both
> overcome accents of their own, proper speech and diction was part
of my
> upbringing. As such, Tennessee twang pronunciations of hoo, wut,
ware,
> wen, and wah became more properly who, what, where, when, and why.
The
> difference is not just in the vowel sound, but in the consonant
that we
> call /hw/ or the "voiceless w," which (hw-i-ch) seems to be the
point
> of contention. I included this sound in my semi-Dvorak shavian
> keyboard, in the form of a small h figure, in the form of a loop
below
> the baseline extends into the w form. My form in askii:
>
> /
> / <--The /w/ slash mark above the baseline
> /
> () <--The /h/ loop
>
> I am still trying to decipher the font creator programs, before I
will
> create my own typing scheme so that I might be able to show you much
> more easily. This so far is the only problem I've had with shavian,
and
> the only one I feel that Read fixed in quikscript. My version is
simply
> a more complete form of his "checkmark" that I can only guess was
> derived the same way.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --Star
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
|
|
| 2441 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
Gee, Paul, I'm glad you could decipher that las message of mine. When I
re-read it, *I* was confused. :)
At any rate, I can see why you would want to use it that way, but what
happens when a reader encounters the white-wheat letter that it cannot
be changed into Woe, as in a printed page? That would be like never
encountering a capitol G and not knowing what sound it's supposed to
make.
Also, if we are going to use multiple fonts on the same keyboard
mapping, shouldn't we look for a more logical keyboard mapping, such as
the one I proposed. Mine uses the /hw/ sound and uses the shift key as
sort of a "flip" key, and while not as close to use as a Dvorak-based
shavian keboard (there has been one mapped if I recall correctly, by
one of our number) it is better for changing writing systems that the
Roman-based keyboard.
--Star
--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
>
> I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
>
> The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
> font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
>
> Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
> representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
>
> For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
> say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments sake.
>
> And it would show up on her screen with the form she describes.
>
> So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as character
> codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
>
> But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
> font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
> normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
>
> I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
> to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
> accents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
> Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
>
> That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear consistent
>
> phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Accent groups.
>
> Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
> their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should be
> able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
>
> Comments? Anyone.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
>
> P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
> that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of T.O.
> It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
> pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
> It would be a shame that such a valuable communication tool/protocol
> would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
>
>
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
|
|
| 2442 |
From: m. vero <vrn111@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:01pm
Subject: unsubscribe t mailing list
|
| |
|
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