|
|
|
| 2443 |
From:  <adsl413593@t...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:28am
Subject: Betr: Re: My Position on Shavian
|
| |
Some pretty advanced book printing and binding equipment is available at
the university I study. It is permitted to use the machinery for personal
stuff, since you're paying for it when you use it.
It is possible to produce simple books, although I do not think the price
will be very cheap. At least 5 eurocents per page. (perhaps even per single-sided
page). I might want to create a nice book out of the Quickscript Manual sometime,
just for fun.
I must still figure out how to use the equipment, but it seems pretty straightforward
and there are some people available who can help out.
Perhaps I could use these facilities?
Ewout
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:02:51 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: [shavian] My Position on Shavian
>Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>OpenOffice.Org is a free, open source product from the website of the
same name, and can generate PDF files. as for normal self publishing,
that depends on the publisher. Xlibris for instance is only print by
order publishing company, while others w
>ll print certain numbers for a
fee. I do agree, however, that it would aid in both our reading speeds
and to spread "the gospel of Shaw" to others to have more than one book
that's been so long out of print it's nearly impossible to find.
--Star
>
--- Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:
>
> > 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
> >
> I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that i
> set up
> in
> a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts that
> I
> have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is the
> format
> that is used for self-publishing. And the other question is how much
>
>
>oes self-publishing cost?
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
>
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Bri
>ney Spears
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to ht
>p://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
| 2444 |
From: <adsl413593@t...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:39am
Subject: Betr: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
It shouldn't be too difficult to create these fonts. In many cases, there
is no need to create a new character. Some simple cut&paste work with a font
editor will do the trick, and will not take too much time.
However, this only works in one direction. I can use a substitute font to
simplify the text, but I can't use a different font to make a text 'more
detailed' (adding extra characters, making more differences etc.)
None the less, I think this will solve some problems.
Ewout
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:42:34 -0000
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
>Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
"If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
font
>and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent
>ifferences
when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
[snip]
|
|
| 2445 |
From: <adsl413593@t...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:45am
Subject: Betr: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
I think it is best to leave the keyboard mapping the fonts use untouched.
If we want to type in a different keyboard setup, we can use tools such as
tavultesoft's Keyman:
http://www.tavultesoft.com/
I use that for some simpler Quickscript keyboards. Take a look at this driver:
http://home.tiscali.nl/teraiten/downloads/efficient.zip
It has a manual in the zip file.
Changing them to work for Shavian too wouldn't be too much work, considering
the fonts are quite alike.
And I believe that editing keyboard mappings is easier to do with Keyman
or something than a font editor.
Ewout
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:46:35 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
>Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Gee, Paul, I'm glad you could decipher that las message of mine. When I
re-read it, *I* was confused. :)
At any rate, I can see why you would want to use it that way, but what
happens when a reader encounters the white-wheat letter that it cannot
>be changed into Woe, as in a printed page? That would be like never
encountering a capitol G and not knowing what sound it's supposed to
make.
Also, if we are going to use multiple fonts on the same keyboard
mapping, shouldn't we look for a more
>ogical keyboard mapping, such as
the one I proposed. Mine uses the /hw/ sound and uses the shift key as
sort of a "flip" key, and while not as close to use as a Dvorak-based
shavian keboard (there has been one mapped if I recall correctly, by
one o
> our number) it is better for changing writing systems that the
Roman-based keyboard.
--Star
--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
>
> I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> Maybe there
>s a way we can all get together on this.
>
> The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
> font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
>
> Perhaps we can
>ave one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw lett
>r
> representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
>
> For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
> say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments sake.
>
> And it would show up on h
>r screen with the form she describes.
>
> So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as character
> codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
>
> But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
>
> font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
> normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
>
> I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
> to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
> a
>cents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
> Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
>
> That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear consistent
>
> phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Acc
>nt groups.
>
> Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
> their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should be
> able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
>
> Comments? Anyone.
>
> Regards, Paul V
>
>
> Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
>
> P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
> that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of T.O.
> It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
>
> pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
> It would be a shame that such a valuable communication tool/protocol
> would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
>
>
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha
> --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups
>s subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
| 2446 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
On Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003, at 19:42 Europe/Paris, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
>
> I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
>
> The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
> font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
>
> Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
> representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
>
>
Unfortunately this will not work as expected. If all you are going to
do is have a font display a different character based on some mapping
(like all X becomes Y) then you will run across instances when the
character X should not have become Y but should remain X or even become
Z. For a font, you will not be able to define complex rules like X
becomes Y if it follows A, G, or H. Actually, I should amend that. On
a Mac OS X system you can make a rulebook that is that smart. However,
I think it is folly.
I think the best way to handle the different accents is to come up
with T. O. English to Shavian <accent> dictionaries. Then you can use
the T. O. as a common reference and convert if you are so inclined.
However, there are problems because the system has to be smart enough
to handle things like "read" which is written in Shavian in two ways
(like "reed" and "red"). You could also come up with a Shavian
dictionary that allows you to map to other Shavian pronunciations as
well. However, you may still come across the same issues with a word
like "read" in the case one Shavian accent has more than one T.O. work
map to it as one word, but another accent maps them to two words.
Unless the world agrees on one spelling for Shavian words we will
always have the concept of "that is written in Australian" versus
"American." And I know we will not agree on one spelling since I do
not agree with words spelled in Androcles and the Lion since they are
not in my accent. And until I have more books published in my accent
people seem to accept Androcles and the Lion as some sort of gospel.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2447 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:24pm
Subject: Re: Betr: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
ah, byt keyman is for windows. I'm on linux. There aren't any shavian
fonts for linux anyway, so my proposition is that I will endeavour to
decipher a linux font creator program (wish me luck) or something
similar and use my own keyboard mapping. If romanji or whatever you
wish to call it is faster in shavian than my version. Then I'll concede
the point.
I hate computers,
--Star
--- adsl413593@t... wrote:
> I think it is best to leave the keyboard mapping the fonts use
> untouched.
> If we want to type in a different keyboard setup, we can use tools
> such as
> tavultesoft's Keyman:
>
> http://www.tavultesoft.com/
>
> I use that for some simpler Quickscript keyboards. Take a look at
> this driver:
>
> http://home.tiscali.nl/teraiten/downloads/efficient.zip
> It has a manual in the zip file.
>
> Changing them to work for Shavian too wouldn't be too much work,
> considering
> the fonts are quite alike.
>
> And I believe that editing keyboard mappings is easier to do with
> Keyman
> or something than a font editor.
>
> Ewout
>
>
> >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> >To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> >From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:46:35 -0800 (PST)
> >Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
> >Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >Gee, Paul, I'm glad you could decipher that las message of mine.
> When I
> re-read it, *I* was confused. :)
>
> At any rate, I can see why you would want to use it that way, but
> what
> happens when a reader encounters the white-wheat letter that it
> cannot
>
> >be changed into Woe, as in a printed page? That would be like never
> encountering a capitol G and not knowing what sound it's supposed to
> make.
>
> Also, if we are going to use multiple fonts on the same keyboard
> mapping, shouldn't we look for a more
> >ogical keyboard mapping, such as
> the one I proposed. Mine uses the /hw/ sound and uses the shift key
> as
> sort of a "flip" key, and while not as close to use as a Dvorak-based
> shavian keboard (there has been one mapped if I recall correctly, by
> one o
> > our number) it is better for changing writing systems that the
> Roman-based keyboard.
>
> --Star
>
> --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
> >
> > I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> > Maybe there
> >s a way we can all get together on this.
> >
> > The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> > "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
>
> > font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
> >
> > Perhaps we can
> >ave one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> > selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> > groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> > when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw lett
> >r
> > representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
> >
> > For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
>
> > say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments
> sake.
> >
> > And it would show up on h
> >r screen with the form she describes.
> >
> > So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as
> character
> > codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
> >
> > But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
> >
> > font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
> > normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
> >
> > I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
>
> > to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
>
> > a
> >cents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
> > Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
> >
> > That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear
> consistent
> >
> > phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Acc
> >nt groups.
> >
> > Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
> > their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should
> be
> > able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
> >
> > Comments? Anyone.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V
> >
> >
> > Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
> >
> > P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
> > that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of
> T.O.
> > It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
> >
> > pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
> > It would be a shame that such a valuable communication
> tool/protocol
> > would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha
> > --Zen Master Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups
> >s subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
|
|
| 2448 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
Hi Star & Ewout & Scott
I am not giving a full blown technical solution to the problem of
how to create the individual fonts needed to represent subsets of
the Shaw Alphabet more appropriate to each major English accent group.
That is not the point. I just want to point out that it is possible
to flip fonts back and forth dynamically on the computer, without too
much work, to read the Shaw Alphabet more easily. Especially, if it
comes from a foriegn accent group.
Obviously, this has nothing to do with the best way to write a piece
of Shavian text that you want to publish.
I hope that all of you are Internet literate enough to accept that
writing Chat or even a post, such as this does not demand the highest
adiration to English spelling. Why expect such an exacting standard
for casual chat.
For technical writing in Shavian, I am sure that tools can be
developed (i.e. Spell-Checkers, Transilteraters)
But the intention is to allow someone to read something from a
different accent group with less confusion. Obviously, it can only
consolidate Shaw letters, not separate one letter into one of two
variants. Without accessing a dictionary, how can you create a
represention of a vowel variation that the writer doesn't hear in the
first place.
But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of unknown
vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle that a
non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the beautiful
Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel deprived.
Present company excepted.
Regards, Paul V.
PS Ewout. Should we maybe consider publishing a Shavian version of
Kingsley's Pamphlet?
____________________attached_________________________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003, at 19:42 Europe/Paris, paul vandenbrink
wrote:
>
> > Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
> >
> > I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> > Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
> >
> > The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> > "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change
the
> > font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
> >
> > Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> > selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> > groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> > when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
> > representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
> >
> >
> Unfortunately this will not work as expected. If all you are
going to
> do is have a font display a different character based on some
mapping
> (like all X becomes Y) then you will run across instances when the
> character X should not have become Y but should remain X or even
become
> Z. For a font, you will not be able to define complex rules like X
> becomes Y if it follows A, G, or H. Actually, I should amend
that. On
> a Mac OS X system you can make a rulebook that is that smart.
However,
> I think it is folly.
>
> I think the best way to handle the different accents is to
come up
> with T. O. English to Shavian <accent> dictionaries. Then you can
use
> the T. O. as a common reference and convert if you are so
inclined.
> However, there are problems because the system has to be smart
enough
> to handle things like "read" which is written in Shavian in two
ways
> (like "reed" and "red"). You could also come up with a Shavian
> dictionary that allows you to map to other Shavian pronunciations
as
> well. However, you may still come across the same issues with a
word
> like "read" in the case one Shavian accent has more than one T.O.
work
> map to it as one word, but another accent maps them to two words.
>
> Unless the world agrees on one spelling for Shavian words we
will
> always have the concept of "that is written in Australian" versus
> "American." And I know we will not agree on one spelling since I
do
> not agree with words spelled in Androcles and the Lion since they
are
> not in my accent. And until I have more books published in my
accent
> people seem to accept Androcles and the Lion as some sort of gospel.
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2449 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:40pm
Subject: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Hi Joseph
I found quite a few more divergent spellings in your list of 1000
English words in Shaw.
hC iz SI TrM dI.
capital kApitl -> kApetal
captain kAptin -> kaptan
carry -> kXI
character -> kXaktD
child -> cFald
children -> cildren
circle sxkl -> sxkul
colony kolanI -> kYlanI
column kolam -> kYlam
common koman -> kYman
compare kampX -> kumpX
complete kamplIt ->kumplIt
condition kandiSan -> kundiSan
connect kanekt -> kunekt
consider kansidD -> kunsidD
contain kantEn -> kuntEn
continue kantinV -> kuntinV
control kantrOl -> kuntrOl
cool kMl -> kMal
copy kopI -> kYpI
cotton kotn -> kotan
cross kros -> krYs
decimal desimal -> desamal
design dizFn -> dIsFn
determine ditxmin -> dItDmAn
develop divelap
dictionary dikSanrI -> dikSunXI
difficult difikalt ->difakYlt
division diviZan -> daviZan
dog dog -> dYg
dollar dolD -> dYlD
double dubl -> dubal
during djUDiN -> dxiN
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. The long term goal for Shavian is to replace T.O. in at least
one newspaper.
P.P.S. A good rule to remember is that the Schwa (Ado) is just half
a vowel, and even though it can start a stand-alone syllable or even
end a syllable, it will never sticks two consonants together
(C+Schwa+C)
to make a closed syllable.
P.P.P.S. Are you going to upgrade your wordlist?
____________________attached________________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
wrote:
> How can we move forward?
>
> What do people see as the long term goals for Shavian?
>
> How do we achieve those goals?
>
> What obstacles are in the way? and how do we remove those
obstacles?
>
> Have you a wishlist for Shavian in the coming weeks/months/years?
>
> What are you doing right now to get more out of Shavian?
>
> Can we do more?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
|
|
| 2450 |
From: <adsl413593@t...>
Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:49pm
Subject: Betr: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
I'm more interested in re-writing the Quickscript Manual. I might be able
to use that for school too :)
But I can print it for you (or print stuff for other members). We will have
to figure out how to deal with payments though.
Ewout
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:01:02 -0000
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
>Reply-To: shavian@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Hi Star & Ewout & Scott
[snip]
>PS Ewout. Should we maybe consider publishing a Shavian version of
Kingsley's Pamphlet?
|
|
| 2451 |
From: Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:35pm
Subject: "Fonts for Linux" (was Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw)
|
| |
I'm not sure if this helps you with your overall mission, but at least
some existing TrueType fonts work just fine on Linux. I had to go
through a little trouble when I was running Red Hat 7.3, but with
newer versions of XFree86, just throw your androcle.ttf and
ghoti___.ttf in your ~/.fonts directory (don't remember if you need to
restart X) and you're golden.
http://66.92.171.57/~bob/mt-static/blog/images/onering.png was made in
Linux by taking a screenshot of some app (probably Mozilla) where I
had a Shavian font selected.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> ah, byt keyman is for windows. I'm on linux. There aren't any shavian
> fonts for linux anyway, so my proposition is that I will endeavour to
> decipher a linux font creator program (wish me luck) or something
> similar and use my own keyboard mapping. If romanji or whatever you
> wish to call it is faster in shavian than my version. Then I'll concede
> the point.
>
> I hate computers,
> --Star
>
|
|
| 2452 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:56pm
Subject: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them on
board for certain. Thanks.
How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now? This
way there would always be something new, and the makers of the webite
would have no need to think up content. It would be the first rung on
the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel (with
short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two stressed
syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to hold
good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a word
like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings on
the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or type
in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about what
I'm doing, so that is good news.)
Thanks
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Joseph
> I found quite a few more divergent spellings in your list of 1000
> English words in Shaw.
> hC iz SI TrM dI.
>
> capital kApitl -> kApetal
> captain kAptin -> kaptan
> carry -> kXI
>
>
> character -> kXaktD
>
> child -> cFald
> children -> cildren
>
>
> circle sxkl -> sxkul
>
>
> colony kolanI -> kYlanI
>
> column kolam -> kYlam
>
> common koman -> kYman
>
> compare kampX -> kumpX
> complete kamplIt ->kumplIt
> condition kandiSan -> kundiSan
> connect kanekt -> kunekt
> consider kansidD -> kunsidD
>
> contain kantEn -> kuntEn
>
> continue kantinV -> kuntinV
> control kantrOl -> kuntrOl
>
> cool kMl -> kMal
> copy kopI -> kYpI
>
> cotton kotn -> kotan
>
> cross kros -> krYs
>
>
> decimal desimal -> desamal
>
> design dizFn -> dIsFn
> determine ditxmin -> dItDmAn
> develop divelap
> dictionary dikSanrI -> dikSunXI
>
> difficult difikalt ->difakYlt
>
> division diviZan -> daviZan
>
> dog dog -> dYg
> dollar dolD -> dYlD
>
> double dubl -> dubal
>
> during djUDiN -> dxiN
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. The long term goal for Shavian is to replace T.O. in at least
> one newspaper.
> P.P.S. A good rule to remember is that the Schwa (Ado) is just half
> a vowel, and even though it can start a stand-alone syllable or
even
> end a syllable, it will never sticks two consonants together
> (C+Schwa+C)
> to make a closed syllable.
> P.P.P.S. Are you going to upgrade your wordlist?
>
> ____________________attached________________________________
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> wrote:
> > How can we move forward?
> >
> > What do people see as the long term goals for Shavian?
> >
> > How do we achieve those goals?
> >
> > What obstacles are in the way? and how do we remove those
> obstacles?
> >
> > Have you a wishlist for Shavian in the coming weeks/months/years?
> >
> > What are you doing right now to get more out of Shavian?
> >
> > Can we do more?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
|
|
| 2453 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:51pm
Subject: One thing I learned about 'ado'
|
| |
|
Hi folks,
I was reading a language book, several months ago, and came upon
something I previously knew intuitively. The Schwa (ado) is the
most common vowel in the English Language.
p.s. When I get a computer of my own I'll share my pronouncation with you folks, okay.
Best regards,
Carl
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2454 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:05pm
Subject: Question about fonts
|
| |
|
Hi folks,
I would love to share my pronouncation with you in Shavian. I have a question which might solve this.
1. If you send me the captial and lower-case roman letter to
Shavian letters font code could I send you my pronouncation and not
have look like illogical roman letters.
thanks,
Carl
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2455 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:50pm
Subject: Always Moving Forward
|
| |
Hi Joseph & Carl
I think besides the minimal vowel sounds of Schwa and the much rarer
shortened short i, there is also the unstressed "er" sound "array".
So by your Logic of alternating stress, DEnJ/DrEnJ is a possible
pronunciation.
I tend to favor DrEnJ over arEnJ because it sounds a little closer
to the way I would say it. But since I would recognise both as valid
when I hear them, I would try and write it as arEnJ. Good to go with
the simpler spelling.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Carl Do you want a list of the Roman letter to Shaw mappings
that we use in ths Shaw Keyboard fonts. Or actual Key codes.
P.P.S. Congratulations on getting some one interested. Most people
just don't get it! Uphill battle. Need to have more sample matter.
I have to make up some pamphlets.
_____________________attached__________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
wrote:
> Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
on
> board for certain. Thanks.
>
> How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
This
> way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
webite
> would have no need to think up content. It would be the first rung
on
> the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
>
> I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
(with
> short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
stressed
> syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
hold
> good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
>
> I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
on
> the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
type
> in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
>
> The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
what
> I'm doing, so that is good news.)
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Joseph
> > I found quite a few more divergent spellings in your list of
1000
> > English words in Shaw.
> > hC iz SI TrM dI.
> >
> > capital kApitl -> kApetal
> > captain kAptin -> kaptan
> > carry -> kXI
> >
> >
> > character -> kXaktD
> >
> > child -> cFald
> > children -> cildren
> >
> >
> > circle sxkl -> sxkul
> >
> >
> > colony kolanI -> kYlanI
> >
> > column kolam -> kYlam
> >
> > common koman -> kYman
> >
> > compare kampX -> kumpX
> > complete kamplIt ->kumplIt
> > condition kandiSan -> kundiSan
> > connect kanekt -> kunekt
> > consider kansidD -> kunsidD
> >
> > contain kantEn -> kuntEn
> >
> > continue kantinV -> kuntinV
> > control kantrOl -> kuntrOl
> >
> > cool kMl -> kMal
> > copy kopI -> kYpI
> >
> > cotton kotn -> kotan
> >
> > cross kros -> krYs
> >
> >
> > decimal desimal -> desamal
> >
> > design dizFn -> dIsFn
> > determine ditxmin -> dItDmAn
> > develop divelap
> > dictionary dikSanrI -> dikSunXI
> >
> > difficult difikalt ->difakYlt
> >
> > division diviZan -> daviZan
> >
> > dog dog -> dYg
> > dollar dolD -> dYlD
> >
> > double dubl -> dubal
> >
> > during djUDiN -> dxiN
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > P.S. The long term goal for Shavian is to replace T.O. in at
least
> > one newspaper.
> > P.P.S. A good rule to remember is that the Schwa (Ado) is just
half
> > a vowel, and even though it can start a stand-alone syllable or
> even
> > end a syllable, it will never sticks two consonants together
> > (C+Schwa+C)
> > to make a closed syllable.
> > P.P.P.S. Are you going to upgrade your wordlist?
> >
> > ____________________attached________________________________
> >
> > --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > How can we move forward?
> > >
> > > What do people see as the long term goals for Shavian?
> > >
> > > How do we achieve those goals?
> > >
> > > What obstacles are in the way? and how do we remove those
> > obstacles?
> > >
> > > Have you a wishlist for Shavian in the coming
weeks/months/years?
> > >
> > > What are you doing right now to get more out of Shavian?
> > >
> > > Can we do more?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
|
|
| 2456 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of unknown
>vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle that a
>non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
>eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the beautiful
>Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
>particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel deprived.
>Present company excepted.
>
>Regards, Paul V.
My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my accent (northern
midwest US) are basically these:
yEIOMxAeiUu
(Sorry I can't do HTML Shavian properly on this computer)
I think it may be helpful to do a comparison of my "American subset" writing,
and my "Standard Shavian" writing. I will post it in a separate message.
Ethan
The chicken came first.
|
|
| 2457 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:45am
Subject: Re: "Fonts for Linux" (was Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw)
|
| |
10/30/03 11:35:14 AM, "Bob Schmertz" <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
>I'm not sure if this helps you with your overall mission, but at least
>some existing TrueType fonts work just fine on Linux. I had to go
>through a little trouble when I was running Red Hat 7.3, but with
>newer versions of XFree86, just throw your androcle.ttf and
>ghoti___.ttf in your ~/.fonts directory (don't remember if you need to
>restart X) and you're golden.
>http://66.92.171.57/~bob/mt-static/blog/images/onering.png was made in
>Linux by taking a screenshot of some app (probably Mozilla) where I
>had a Shavian font selected.
>
>--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
>wrote:
>> ah, byt keyman is for windows. I'm on linux. There aren't any shavian
>> fonts for linux anyway, so my proposition is that I will endeavour to
>> decipher a linux font creator program (wish me luck) or something
>> similar and use my own keyboard mapping. If romanji or whatever you
>> wish to call it is faster in shavian than my version. Then I'll concede
>> the point.
>>
>> I hate computers,
>> --Star
I use Linux too, and I have no trouble at all running standard windows TrueType
fonts. As far as Linux fonts go, are you referring to Linux bitmap fonts? If
so, you can create them, too, using any of several Linux font editors. One of
the things I want to do is create more Shavian fonts. I currently have a couple
versions of a font which supports Unicode Shavian in both the Conscript user
area, and the new permanent allocation in plane one. You can get them at:
http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html
Ethan
The chicken came first.
|
|
| 2458 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:32am
Subject: Can you read both versions?
|
| |
I don't see great differences between them, but I wanted to put this out here
for everybody else to see and critique.
Ethan
The chicken came first.
***************************************
Sorry I can't do html email! You will just have to load it into your
favorite text editor and change to a Shavian font.
fylOiN iz H wE F wUd rFt "intDnASanl" (P pxhAps "stAndDd
/amXikan") /SEvWn,
n Hen folOz H wE F wUd rFt "lOkl" /SEvWn.
Following is the way I would write "international" (or perhaps
"Standard American") Shavian, and then follows the way I would
write "local" Shavian.
F welkum enI kritisizmz P tips V mE hAv, espeSlI Az kunsxnz
H "stAndDd" speliN.
I welcome any criticizm or tips you may have, especially as concerns
the "standard" spelling.
fxst, wiT H fUl komplament v vQlz, hCz mF intxpratESan
v "intxnASanl" (/amXikan) /SEvWn.
First, with the full compliment of vowels, here's my interpretation
of "international" (American) Shavian.
H=Ha
n=And
t=tM (oftan prOnQnst "ta" P "tU")
v=uv
/JAbDwokI
twuz brilig, n H slFHI tOvz did gFD n gimbl in H wEb.
Yl mimzI wx H bPagOvz, n H mOm-rATs QtgrEb.
hI tUk hiz vPpl sPd in hAnd, lYN tFm H mANsam fO hI sYt.
sO restad hI bF H tum-tum trI, n stUd a hwFl in TYt.
n Az in ufiS TYt hI stUd, H JAbDwok, wiT Fz aflEm,
kEm hwifliN TrM H tulJI wUd, n bxbld Az it kEm!
wun tM, wun tM, n TrM-n-TrM, H bPpl blEd went snikD-snAk.
hI left it ded, n wiT its hed hI went galumfiN bAk.
n hAst HQ slEn H JAbDwok? kum t mF Rmz, mF bImiS bQ!
O frAmJas dE! kalM, kalE! hI cPtld in hiz Jq.
twuz brilig, n H slFHI tOvz did gFD n gimbl in H wEb.
Yl mimzI wx H bPagOvz, n H mOm-rATs QtgrEb.
nQ wiT mF On subset v vQlz:
yEIOMxAeiUu
H=Hu
v=uv
t=tM
n=And
/JAbxwykI
twuz brilig, n H slFHI tOvz did kFx n gimbl in H wEb.
yl mimzI wx H bPugOvz, n H mOm-rATs QtgrEb.
hI tUk hiz vPpl sPd in hAnd, lyN tFm H mANsum fO hI syt.
sO rested hI bF H tum-tum trI, n stUd u wFl in Tyt.
n Az in ufiS Tyt hI stUd, H JAbxwyk, wiT Fz uflEm,
kEm wifliN TrM H tulJI wUd, n bxbld Az it kEm!
wun tM, wun tM, n TrM-n-TrM, H bPpl blEd went snikx-snAk.
hI left it ded, n wiT its hed hI went gulumfiN bAk.
n hAst HQ slEn H JAbxwyk? kum t mF Rmz, mF bImiS bq!
O frAmJus dE! kulM, kulE! hI cPtld in hiz Jq.
twuz brilig, n H slFHI tOvz did gFx n gimbl in H wEb.
yl mimzI wx H bPugOvz, n H mOm-rATs QtgrEb.
|
|
| 2459 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:35am
Subject: Re: "Fonts for Linux" (was Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw)
|
| |
Cool, I liked the screenshot. I'll discuss it with my in-house geek,
aka my husband.
Thanks again,
--Star
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
|
|
| 2460 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:23am
Subject: Re: Question about fonts
|
| |
On 30 Oct 2003 at 13:05, carl easton wrote:
> 1. If you send me the captial and lower-case roman letter to Shavian
> letters font code could I send you my pronouncation and not have
> look like illogical roman letters. thanks, Carl
Talls:
p - peep
t - tot
k - kick
f - fee
T - thigh
s - so
S - sure
c - church
j - yea
N - hung
Deeps:
b - bib
d - dead
g - gag
v - vow
H - they
z - zoo
Z - measure
J - judge
w - woe
h - ha-ha
Shorts (1):
l - loll
m - mime
i - if
e - egg
A - ash
a - ado
o - on
U - wool
Q - out
y - ah
Shorts (2):
r - roar
n - nun
I - eat
E - age
F - ice
u - up
O - oak
M - ooze
q - oil
Y - awe
Compounds:
R - are
P - or
X - air
x - err
D - array
C - ear
W - Ian
V - yew
This seems to me to be the de-facto standard assignment in the fonts I
have.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2461 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 0:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them on
> board for certain. Thanks.
>
> How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now? This
> way there would always be something new, and the makers of the webite
> would have no need to think up content. It would be the first rung on
> the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never happened,
although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It was going
to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think about
it...
The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new site - but
they haven't really taken off.
> I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel (with
> short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two stressed
> syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to hold
> good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a word
> like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in Shavian.
> I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings on
> the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or type
> in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard Layout Editor
from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout using
Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font to do
this).
> The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about what
> I'm doing, so that is good news.)
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
Hugh B
|
|
| 2462 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 0:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
> 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of unknown
> >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle that a
> >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the beautiful
> >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel deprived.
> >Present company excepted.
> >
> >Regards, Paul V.
>
> My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my accent
(northern
> midwest US) are basically these:
>
> yEIOMxAeiUu
I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US dialect. Do
you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect" (as in
without blemish) differently?
Hugh B
|
|
| 2463 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:45pm
Subject: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Hi Hugh
Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
think?
Thanks
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
>
>
> > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
on
> > board for certain. Thanks.
> >
> > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
This
> > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
webite
> > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
rung on
> > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
>
> I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
happened,
> although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
was going
> to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
about
> it...
>
> The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
site - but
> they haven't really taken off.
>
> > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
(with
> > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
stressed
> > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
hold
> > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
>
> BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
Shavian.
>
> > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
on
> > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
type
> > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
>
> If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
Layout Editor
> from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout
using
> Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
to do
> this).
>
> > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
what
> > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
>
> Hugh B
|
|
| 2464 |
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Perhaps I've missed you saying it, if you did - where are you from and what
accent would you say you have?
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> Hi Hugh
>
> Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
> Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> think?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> >
> >
> > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
> on
> > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > >
> > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
> This
> > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> webite
> > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> rung on
> > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> >
> > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> happened,
> > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
> was going
> > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
> about
> > it...
> >
> > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> site - but
> > they haven't really taken off.
> >
> > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> (with
> > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> stressed
> > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> hold
> > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
> word
> > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> >
> > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> Shavian.
> >
> > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
> on
> > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
> type
> > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> >
> > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> Layout Editor
> > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout
> using
> > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
> to do
> > this).
> >
> > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> what
> > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Hugh B
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
|
|
| 2465 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
Hi Hugh
There is a difference in my pronunciation of the 2 forms of perfect,
but I don't notice it a stressed versus unstressed.
Instead the difference seems to be more just where the syllable
boundary is.
Specifically
Perfect
the verb (refine) would be spelled in Shaw , px-fekt or pD-fekt
and Perfect
the noun (unmarred) would be spelled, pxf-akt or pxf-ikt
As I have been saying all along, my Canadian accent group just
doesn't distinguish between the stressed er (Err/Urge) and
unstressed er (Array) sound. They all sound stressed to me.
Hope that doesn't stress you out, Hugh.
Fond regards, Paul V.
P.S. Confirmation anyone.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
>
>
> > 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of
unknown
> > >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle
that a
> > >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> > >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the
beautiful
> > >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> > >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel
deprived.
> > >Present company excepted.
> > >
> > >Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my
accent
> (northern
> > midwest US) are basically these:
> >
> > yEIOMxAeiUu
>
> I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US
dialect. Do
> you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect"
(as in
> without blemish) differently?
>
> Hugh B
|
|
| 2466 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:24pm
Subject: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Hi Joseph
I do notice that when I pronounce the last syllable of murmur, it
seems slightly longer and more distinct than the first. But the
distinction is infitesmal. I would only notice it in the context of
the two variant sound being pronounced together.
I don't hear any difference at all in the word Murmuring.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
wrote:
> Hi Hugh
>
> Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
> Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> think?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> >
> >
> > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take
them
> on
> > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > >
> > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for
now?
> This
> > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> webite
> > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> rung on
> > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> >
> > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> happened,
> > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind.
It
> was going
> > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to
think
> about
> > it...
> >
> > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> site - but
> > they haven't really taken off.
> >
> > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> (with
> > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> stressed
> > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> hold
> > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think
a
> word
> > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> >
> > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> Shavian.
> >
> > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your
spellings
> on
> > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit
or
> type
> > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> >
> > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> Layout Editor
> > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred
layout
> using
> > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial"
font
> to do
> > this).
> >
> > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
article
> > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
have
> > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> what
> > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Hugh B
|
|
| 2467 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Hi Joseph & Hugh
We seem to be going through some pronunciation evolution on this
half of the world, that marginalizes some of these unstressed vowels,
(schwa, schwi, schwer)
When I was young, "interesting" was pronounced "intx-estiN"
went through a stage in 70's where it was usually "inta-restiN"
and is now usually pronounced ----------------> "int-restiN"
This word seems to have an unnatural rhythm, by your comment below.
Regards, Paul V.
> I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel (with
> short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two stressed
> syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to hold
> good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
>
>
> > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
on
> > board for certain. Thanks.
> >
> > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
This
> > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
webite
> > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
rung on
> > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
>
> I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
happened,
> although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
was going
> to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
about
> it...
>
> The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
site - but
> they haven't really taken off.
>
> > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
(with
> > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
stressed
> > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
hold
> > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
>
> BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
Shavian.
>
> > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your
spellings on
> > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
type
> > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
>
> If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
Layout Editor
> from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred
layout using
> Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
to do
> this).
>
> > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
article
> > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
have
> > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
what
> > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
>
> Hugh B
|
|
| 2468 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
10/31/03 7:21:42 AM, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
>> My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my accent
>(northern
>> midwest US) are basically these:
>>
>> yEIOMxAeiUu
>
>I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US dialect. Do
>you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect" (as in
>without blemish) differently?
>
>Hugh B
Actually, I do. pxfikt, pxfekt
As far as stress differences, yes they exist. But the actual value of the
vowels doesn't change that much. While often an unstressed vowel may turn into
a schwa in normal speach, if you ask someone to say the word slow and distinct,
such as the way a teacher would correct the pronunciation of a student, you
won't hear any schwa. Also, while there may be a difference in stress on "x",
there is no conscious difference in the sound. Basically, the vowels above are
the phonemes we use, but I can still use the alternates (D,a) to indicate stress
differences, as I am aware of them.
Also regarding the w/wh difference, I don't use wh in my speech, but I'm
reconsidering! Thing is, there is a difference, and it does help with
understanding, but for some reason it has been disappearing. My philosophy has
always been that any function of language which is helpful should be maintained.
When I learned to talk, I must have learned my pronunciation primarily from my
mother, since my father and grandparents all say "wh" but I say "w". It's
strange how such changes can take place without anybody noticing!
Ethan
The chicken came first.
|
|
| 2469 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:14pm
Subject: Re: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
10/31/03 1:45:50 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
>Hi Hugh
>
>Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
>this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
>and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
>Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
>repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
>contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
>think?
>
>Thanks
>Joseph
For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being the stress
on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.
Ethan
The chicken came first.
|
|
| 2470 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:48pm
Subject: Re: Question about fonts
|
| |
|
Hi Philip,
Thank you, very much! For the font code.
best regards
On 30 Oct 2003 at 13:05, carl easton wrote:
> 1. If you send me the captial and lower-case roman letter to Shavian
> letters font code could I send you my pronouncation and not have
> look like illogical roman letters. thanks, Carl
Talls:
p - peep
t - tot
k - kick
f - fee
T - thigh
s - so
S - sure
c - church
j - yea
N - hung
Deeps:
b - bib
d - dead
g - gag
v - vow
H - they
z - zoo
Z - measure
J - judge
w - woe
h - ha-ha
Shorts (1):
l - loll
m - mime
i - if
e - egg
A - ash
a - ado
o - on
U - wool
Q - out
y - ah
Shorts (2):
r - roar
n - nun
I - eat
E - age
F - ice
u - up
O - oak
M - ooze
q - oil
Y - awe
Compounds:
R - are
P - or
X - air
x - err
D - array
C - ear
W - Ian
V -
yew
This seems to me to be the de-facto standard assignment in the fonts I
have.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2471 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
|
| |
|
Hi Paul and Hugh,
Sometimes now that I have learned to distinguish x/D and a/u by relying on the Dictionary to show were the Stressing is located.
I also noticed that Paul, that of course they seem stressed
because when spelling them out vocally we isolate the different
syllables. Thus stressing them.
Hope this helps,
Carl paul vandenbrink wrote: Hi Hugh
There is a difference in my pronunciation of the 2 forms of perfect,
but I don't notice it a stressed versus unstressed.
Instead the difference seems to be more just where the syllable
boundary is.
Specifically
Perfect
the verb (refine) would be spelled in Shaw , px-fekt or pD-fekt
and Perfect
the noun (unmarred) would be spelled, pxf-akt or pxf-ikt
As I have been saying all along, my Canadian accent group just
doesn't distinguish between the stressed er (Err/Urge) and
unstressed er (Array) sound. They all sound stressed to me.
Hope that doesn't stress you out, Hugh.
Fond regards, Paul V.
P.S. Confirmation anyone.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ethan"
>
>
> > 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink"
wrote:
> >
> > >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of
unknown
> > >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle
that a
> > >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> > >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the
beautiful
> > >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> > >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel
deprived.
> > >Present company excepted.
> > >
> > >Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my
accent
> (northern
> > midwest US) are basically these:
> >
> > yEIOMxAeiUu
>
> I'm sure there is a stress difference in the
northern midwest US
dialect. Do
> you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect"
(as in
> without blemish) differently?
>
> Hugh B
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
|
|
| 2472 |
From: Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...>
Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:14pm
Subject: Re: Moving Forward...
|
| |
Oh Im from Lincolnshire (if you ask where that is Ill throttle you!).
My accent would probably fall in the belt between Northern and
Midland.
I think I read somewhere (or at least someone claimed) that you spoke
in RP. True?
Thanks
Joseph
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> Perhaps I've missed you saying it, if you did - where are you from
and what
> accent would you say you have?
>
> Hugh B
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:45 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
>
>
> > Hi Hugh
> >
> > Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> > this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> > and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
> >
> > Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> > repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> > contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> > think?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
> >
> > --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > > To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> > >
> > >
> > > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take
them
> > on
> > > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
> > This
> > > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> > webite
> > > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> > rung on
> > > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> > >
> > > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> > happened,
> > > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind.
It
> > was going
> > > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to
think
> > about
> > > it...
> > >
> > > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> > site - but
> > > they haven't really taken off.
> > >
> > > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> > (with
> > > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> > stressed
> > > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> > hold
> > > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I
think a
> > word
> > > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> > >
> > > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> > Shavian.
> > >
> > > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your
spellings
> > on
> > > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit
or
> > type
> > > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> > >
> > > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> > Layout Editor
> > > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred
layout
> > using
> > > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial"
font
> > to do
> > > this).
> > >
> > > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
article
> > > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
have
> > > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> > what
> > > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Joseph
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
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