|
|
|
| 2833 |
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:59am
Subject: Re: Scissors question
|
| |
On 9 Feb 2004 at 23:37, Ethan wrote:
> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
I cannot, at least from this computer and email program (which are
probably both equally at fault - Pegasus Mail for not understanding UTF-
8 (!!!) and Win98 for not being terribly good at Unicode).
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
|
|
| 2834 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:13am
Subject: Pure Shavian plain text (was: Re: Scissors question)
|
| |
Philip Newton wrote:
> On 9 Feb 2004 at 23:37, Ethan wrote:
>
>
>>Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
>
>
> I cannot, at least from this computer and email program (which are
> probably both equally at fault - Pegasus Mail for not understanding UTF-
> 8 (!!!) and Win98 for not being terribly good at Unicode).
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
Yes, of that I'm familiar. I haven't yet managed to get Win98 to
display plane 1 characters at all, no matter what the encoding. I can't
even get it to consitently display plane 0 characters! I've heard
though that 2000 and XP both have good support for plane 1 characters.
If so, then all that's needed is the font, and you're off and running.
I get around the trouble by using Linux most of the time! Its support
for plane 1 Shavian characters is getting better all the time.
I'm currently using my convertor program I mentioned a while ago to
create the Shavian text. If I can figure out how to create a keymap for
Shavian, I might be able to type directly in Shavian just by pressing a
"magic key" or key combo to switch to my Shavian keymap. That'll be the
day I've been waiting for!
Oh, and my convertor program works great, but isn't quite ready for
public release. A couple of bugs could cause confusion for users, so I
have to fix them first.
--
·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ - Ethan
|
|
| 2835 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:52am
Subject: Re: Scissors question
|
| |
On Monday, Feb 9, 2004, at 23:37 US/Eastern, Ethan wrote:
> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> ð‘’ð‘¨ð‘¯ ð‘§ð‘¯ð‘°ð‘šð‘³ð‘›ð‘° ð‘®ð‘°ð‘› ð‘ž
·ð‘–ð‘±ð‘ð‘¾ð‘¯ ð‘‘ð‘§ð‘’ð‘•ð‘‘ ð‘¦ð‘¯ ð‘žð‘¦ð‘•
> ð‘¥ð‘§ð‘•ð‘©ð‘¡?
>
Yes, on my Mac OS X system this is not a problem.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
| Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] |
|
| 2836 |
From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:48am
Subject: Re: Scissors question
|
| |
>>> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢® ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®?
Yes, on my Mac OS X system this is not a problem.<<
I can't read it - just question marks or lines - on a MacOS system using the America Online (AOL) mail client.
Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC
|
|
| 2837 |
From:  Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:12pm
Subject: Re: Scissors question
|
| |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
To: <shavian@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Scissors question
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > P.S. Just a personal preference, but I would like to hear more about
> > Practical matters, rather than discuss a hypothetical test case,
> > over and over.
>
> Yes, practical matters, like how to get Shavian working well on our
> computers!
> ð‘˜ð‘§ð‘•, ð‘ð‘®ð‘¨ð‘’ð‘‘ð‘¦ð‘’ð‘©ð‘¤
ð‘¥ð‘¨ð‘‘ð‘¼ð‘Ÿ, ð‘¤ð‘²ð‘’ ð‘£ð‘¬ ð‘‘ ð‘œð‘§ð‘‘
·ð‘–ð‘±ð‘ð‘¾ð‘¯
> ð‘¢ð‘»ð‘’ð‘¦ð‘™ ð‘¢ð‘§ð‘¤ ð‘ªð‘¯ ð‘¬ð‘¼ ð‘’ð‘³ð‘¥ð‘ð‘¿ð‘‘ð‘¼ð‘Ÿ!
>
> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> ð‘’ð‘¨ð‘¯ ð‘§ð‘¯ð‘°ð‘šð‘³ð‘›ð‘° ð‘®ð‘°ð‘› ð‘ž
·ð‘–ð‘±ð‘ð‘¾ð‘¯ ð‘‘ð‘§ð‘’ð‘•ð‘‘ ð‘¦ð‘¯ ð‘žð‘¦ð‘•
> ð‘¥ð‘§ð‘•ð‘©ð‘¡?
> --
> ·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ (Ethan)
All I see are squares.
Hugh B
|
|
| 2838 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:02pm
Subject: Re: Scissors question
|
| |
RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> >>> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> 〓〓〓〓〓〓 〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓 〓〓〓〓〓〓 〓〓 〓〓〓〓〓〓
> 〓〓〓〓 〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓 〓〓〓〓 〓〓〓〓〓〓 〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓〓?
> Yes, on my Mac OS X system this is not a problem.<<
>
> I can't read it - just question marks or lines - on a MacOS system using
> the America Online (AOL) mail client.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC
Perhaps you just need to download and install a Unicode Shavian font?
Are you running OS X? I have a font available which should work on that
system, at least it works for Scott it works.
http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html
One thing I noticed is that your email was sent in a Japanese
characterset, ISO-2022-JP. I wonder if that has anything to do with
your problem? My text is encoded in UTF-8. Try the font and try
setting your AOL client to use that font and UTF-8 encoding, if
possible. I don't know anything about AOL, so I can't help you much on
how to adjust it, if it's even possible.
--
·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ - Ethan
|
|
| 2839 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:40pm
Subject: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
|
Hi Folks,
I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed:
"What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an
important, though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning,
Shavian should be allowed to be public in bookstores and
libraries. I believe it should be taught at the college or
post-high school level, as a means of giving variety in reading and
writing English. It should be given the status of another
language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing texts.)
Though I don't think it should be the official form of written English,
it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in
bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian
Enthusiasts.
Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.
best regards,
Carl
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
|
|
| 2840 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:52pm
Subject: Re: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
> discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What
> role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
>
> Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important,
> though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be
> allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should
> be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving
> variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status
> of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing
> texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written
> English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in
> bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.
>
> Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the
> role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
I think it should be all of that, and of course nobody is preventing
that from happening, there are no laws against it, etc. It just needs
more exposure.
But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is the
role I think it should play - it should be taught to young children who
haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in this way,
these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity, not
fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current system
is. More children would learn to read, and would read better. There
would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading disorders.
Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they have
already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major jump to
go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing to
Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.
The other benefit of this is the fact that if you teach the children
Shavian in this generation, then by next generation it will have become
normal and you will see it used everywhere, and almost everybody will be
able to read and write it.
--
·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ - Ethan
|
|
| 2841 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:05pm
Subject: Re: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
|
Hi Ethan,
I see your point. The only reason I didn't mention teaching
Shavian to Children is because of how entrenched T.O. is to older
generations. Shavian can be taught first, then T.O.
But, T.O. is the official form of written English to the
authorities, such as schools, banks, and government. So there
still is the need to learn and keep T.O.. I believe we both
can see how much more enjoyable reading can be if Shavian is
more "exposed" like you say. So once I get a computer of my
own I will help transliterate books and seek permission to publish
existing books into Shavian. (Just like translating a book into a
foreign language to the public.)
Best Regards,
Carl /kRal/
Ethan wrote:
carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
> discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What
> role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
>
> Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important,
> though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be
> allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should
> be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving
> variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status
> of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing
> texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written
>
English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in
> bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.
>
> Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the
> role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
I think it should be all of that, and of course nobody is preventing
that from happening, there are no laws against it, etc. It just needs
more exposure.
But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is the
role I think it should play - it should be taught to young children who
haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in this way,
these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity, not
fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current system
is. More children would learn to read, and would read
better. There
would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading disorders.
Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they have
already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major jump to
go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing to
Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.
The other benefit of this is the fact that if you teach the children
Shavian in this generation, then by next generation it will have become
normal and you will see it used everywhere, and almost everybody will be
able to read and write it.
--
·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ - Ethan
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
|
|
| 2842 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:43pm
Subject: Re: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
On Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004, at 16:40 US/Eastern, carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
> discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What
> role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
>
> Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important,
> though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should
> be allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it
> should be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means
> of giving variety in reading and writing English. It should be given
> the status of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating
> existing texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form
> of written English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned
> before) in bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of
> Shavian Enthusiasts.
>
>
I believe that it could be adopted as an official format for writing
English. However, it would probably be best done in a small country
that does not have too large an expense of publishing official
documents. It would probably exist side-by-side with T.O. until some
period of years had passed. And then the T.O. could be removed. I
would imagine this small country would be a testbed for other
countries. Eventually all English-speaking countries could do the same
technique. They key thing is to demonstrate that using Shavian for
English is much better for the readers of English than T.O. And it has
to be done in a large fashion (i.e., roadsigns, official publications,
newspapers, etc.) otherwise it remains a pleasant oddity.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
| Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored] |
|
| 2843 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:12am
Subject: Re: Scissors question
|
| |
> > Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> > ð‘’ð‘¨ð‘¯ ð‘§ð‘¯ð‘°ð‘šð‘³ð‘›ð‘° ð‘®ð‘°ð‘› ð‘ž
> ·ð‘–ð‘±ð‘ð‘¾ð‘¯ ð‘‘ð‘§ð‘’ð‘•ð‘‘ ð‘¦ð‘¯ ð‘žð‘¦ð‘•
> > ð‘¥ð‘§ð‘•ð‘©ð‘¡?
> > --
> > ·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ (Ethan)
>
> All I see are squares.
>
> Hugh B
>
>
I see wierder things than squares... if I didn't know better I'd call
it a garbage dump.
--Star
=====
Why is it always me and the burning death?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
|
|
| 2844 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:53am
Subject: Shavian in UTF-8
|
| |
Star Raven wrote:
>>>Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
>>>ð‘’ð‘¨ð‘¯
ð‘§ð‘¯ð‘°ð‘šð‘³ð‘›ð‘°
ð‘®ð‘°ð‘› ð‘ž
>>
>>·ð‘–ð‘±ð‘Âð‘¾ð‘¯
ð‘‘ð‘§ð‘’ð‘•ð‘‘ ð‘¦ð‘¯
ð‘žð‘¦ð‘•
>>
>>>ð‘¥ð‘§ð‘•ð‘©ð‘¡?
>>>--
>>>·ð‘°ð‘â€Ã°Â‘©ð‘¯ (Ethan)
>>
>>All I see are squares.
>>
>>Hugh B
>>
>>
>
>
> I see wierder things than squares... if I didn't know better I'd call
> it a garbage dump.
>
> --Star
Yes, I see! It's in your reply, having been scrambled by your software
and then sent along.
That text, which shows up as boxes or question marks to some and as
garbage to others is the official encoding standard for Shavian, which
is encoded in UTF-8 instead of US-ASCII or ISO-8859-1. Each character
takes four bytes, except for the namer dot, which takes two, and other
punctuation which takes one byte. That is why my name, which is five
characters long, including the namer dot, comes out as
·ð‘°ð‘â€Ã°Â‘©ð‘¯ (18 characters) if not properly interpreted! If only
we could get all the computers to support the Unicode standard!
Since I'm using UTF-8, likely everybody whose computer doesn't
understand UTF-8 will have the garbage in this message doubled in
length...
--
·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ - Ethan
|
|
| 2845 |
From: Ph. D. <phild@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:18am
Subject: Shavian T-Shirts?
|
| |
|
While Googling, I just happened to run across this
They seem to sell T-shirts and coffee mugs with
a Shavian alphabet message. Who runs this site?
As a side note, it seems that most Shaw Alphabet
sites that turn up on Google are dead as well as
most of the links on Bob Richardson's site. Where
have they all gone?
--Phillip Driscoll
|
|
|
| 2846 |
From: Ph. D. <phild@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:08am
Subject: Re: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
Ethan skribis:
>
> But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is the
> role I think it should play - it should be taught to young children who
> haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in this way,
> these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity, not
> fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current system
> is. More children would learn to read, and would read better. There
> would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading disorders.
> Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they have
> already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major jump to
> go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing to
> Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.
As I recall this was attempted back in the 1960s with the Initial
Teaching Alphabet. The ITA was a phonemic alphabet. Many
children's books were published in it. The idea was to use this
phonemic spelling to teach children how to read, then they
could be transitioned to TO.
As I recall, children did learn reading faster and better with ITA,
but the transitioning was a big problem. It turned out to be more
difficult to teach TO to those who had already learned a phonemic
system than to just start out with TO (which was why the ITA was
abandoned).
(As an aside, I doubt that Shavian would correct problems with
Dyslexia. There is less distinction between many Shavian letters
than Latin ones. I suspect Dyslexia would be just as much a
problem as it is now.)
--Ph. D.
|
|
| 2847 |
From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 12, 2004 0:42pm
Subject: Re: Shavian T-Shirts?
|
| |
awesome! wish they had more but, hey, that's great.. Spelling reform
now! I love it. I didn't know there was a serif version of shavian...
hmmm....
Alright, fellow disciples of Shaw, we need to do something to pick up
the shavian sites... use free hosted sites, or perhaps the whole crew
should collaborate on one site?
Just a thought,
Write on, and be joyous
--Star, in snowy TN
--- "Ph. D." <phild@a...> wrote:
> While Googling, I just happened to run across this
> site: http://www.cafeshops.com/shavian
>
> They seem to sell T-shirts and coffee mugs with
> a Shavian alphabet message. Who runs this site?
>
> As a side note, it seems that most Shaw Alphabet
> sites that turn up on Google are dead as well as
> most of the links on Bob Richardson's site. Where
> have they all gone?
>
> --Phillip Driscoll
>
>
=====
Why is it always me and the burning death?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
|
|
| 2848 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Shavian T-Shirts?
|
| |
On Thursday, Feb 12, 2004, at 07:42 US/Eastern, Star Raven wrote:
>
> Alright, fellow disciples of Shaw, we need to do something to pick up
> the shavian sites... use free hosted sites, or perhaps the whole crew
> should collaborate on one site?
>
>
I have already volunteered to have shavian.org run from my
mithrandir.com server. Perhaps we can devise a strategy where the
community can use that site. However, this would need coordination
with Philip Newton as shavian.org is his domain. Also, as far as I
know, he has not actually changed the location of shavian.org to run
from my server.
If others are interested in using my machine to host a web site I may
be able to do that as well. However, not all of you since my ISP will
probably kill me and charge me lots of money. Basically if you are
interested you will need to be able to use ssh to access my server
since I do not let most forms of communication into my machine. Just
drop me a line and we can discuss things.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2849 |
From: Ph. D. <phild@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:48pm
Subject: Re: Shavian T-Shirts?
|
| |
Star Raven skribis:
>
> awesome! wish they had more but, hey, that's great.. Spelling reform
> now! I love it. I didn't know there was a serif version of shavian...
> hmmm....
It appears to be my font called "Shaw Roman." But who
created these items? Someone on this list?
--Phillip Driscoll
|
|
| 2850 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:58pm
Subject: Re: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
Hi Philip
You might want to check the internet on your assumptions about
dyslexia.
I have seen a couple articles in the last few months that show from
statistical evidence, that Dyslexia is much less of a problem in
countries where the spelling is consistenly phonemic.
It is the extra mental processing that complicated spelling rules
invoke, rather than funny looking letters which are hard to
distinguish, which accentuates a Dylexic persons reading
difficulties.
The Hebrew Alphabet is the king of similar looking characters, but
does not have same level of difficulty attributed to ENglish
spelling.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Ph. D." <phild@a...> wrote:
> Ethan skribis:
> >
> > But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is
the
> > role I think it should play - it should be taught to young
children who
> > haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in
this way,
> > these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity,
not
> > fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current
system
> > is. More children would learn to read, and would read better.
There
> > would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading
disorders.
> > Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they
have
> > already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major
jump to
> > go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing
to
> > Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.
>
>
> As I recall this was attempted back in the 1960s with the Initial
> Teaching Alphabet. The ITA was a phonemic alphabet. Many
> children's books were published in it. The idea was to use this
> phonemic spelling to teach children how to read, then they
> could be transitioned to TO.
>
> As I recall, children did learn reading faster and better with
ITA,
> but the transitioning was a big problem. It turned out to be more
> difficult to teach TO to those who had already learned a phonemic
> system than to just start out with TO (which was why the ITA was
> abandoned).
>
> (As an aside, I doubt that Shavian would correct problems with
> Dyslexia. There is less distinction between many Shavian letters
> than Latin ones. I suspect Dyslexia would be just as much a
> problem as it is now.)
>
> --Ph. D.
|
|
| 2851 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:53pm
Subject: What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking Literate World?
|
| |
Obviously, if you are very literate in the Roman Alphabet, going
back to Kindergarden and staarting over can seem to be a chore.
I suspect, the best strategy would be best to focus on pre-teens and
early teenagers up to about 16. We could focus on the Shaw Alphabets
secretive/mysterious aspects. Have your own personal and confidental
Diary.
We should have Young persons Shaw Chat room and/or bulletin board.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I just found another Shaw page at
http://www.geocities.com/arago2188/
Anybody in the group know who it belongs too?
|
|
| 2852 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:44pm
Subject: Carl's current view
|
| |
|
Hi Folks,
Concerning the role Shavian should play to literate
English-speaking world: As for me I am highly literate with Traditional
Orthography (T.O.). However, I prefer Shavian over T.O.. I
would like to be just as literate with Shavian as with T.O.,
though there is not enough literature to become super-literate at
reading Shavian. So, what I would like to do is transliterate
existing texts into Shavian, once I get an internet-ready
computer. And I will first transliterate the "Standard Works" of
my Church. Then I will transliterate just about anything else the
Shavian Community would like to see into Shavian.
Though, that is ambitious it is a worthwhile goal. I think
one of the first few steps to exposing the English-speaking world
to the benefits of Shavian, to bring out Shavian books, then the other
stuff it takes to give further exposure to Shavian. And
that is what I hope we can do to publicize our favorite
writing system -- Shavian.
best regards,
Carl /kRal/
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
|
|
| 2853 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:51pm
Subject: Viewpoint
|
| |
Hi Carl & the group
As for the role the Shavian Alphabet should play to literate English-
speaking world:
I find literacy even with the Traditional Orthography (T.O.) to a
constant challenge to stay up to date.
That's why I prefer Shavian over the T.O.
There isn't the struggle to pick up the correct pronunciation.
A lot of new English word are borrowed from french and have a variant
pronunciation (i.e. Ouevre)
I would like to be able to read as fast with Shavian as with T.O.,
though there is not enough literature to become super-swift at
reading Shavian.
So, what I hoping is that someone will build a program to
transliterate existing texts into Shavian, so I can more practice.
It would be nice if their was a newspaper, even.
I am glad to hear that Carl intends to translate the Bible into
Shavian. A modern translation I hope. The King James has some funny
pronunciations.
I also think that this is an ambitious but very worthwhile goal.
I think one of the first few steps to exposing the English-speaking
world to the benefits of Shavian, is to bring out Shavian books, and
then to do all the other stuff it takes to give further exposure to
Shavian Alphabet.
We have to do what we can to propogate and deseminate our favorite
writing system.
Hopefully revised enough to understandable by our American cousins.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Concerning the role Shavian should play to literate English-
speaking world: As for me I am highly literate with Traditional
Orthography (T.O.). However, I prefer Shavian over T.O.. I would
like to be just as literate with Shavian as with T.O., though there
is not enough literature to become super-literate at reading
Shavian. So, what I would like to do is transliterate existing texts
into Shavian, once I get an internet-ready computer. And I will
first transliterate the "Standard Works" of my Church. Then I will
transliterate just about anything else the Shavian Community would
like to see into Shavian.
>
> Though, that is ambitious it is a worthwhile goal. I think one of
the first few steps to exposing the English-speaking world to the
benefits of Shavian, to bring out Shavian books, then the other stuff
it takes to give further exposure to Shavian. And that is what I
hope we can do to publicize our favorite writing system -- Shavian.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl /kRal/
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
|
|
| 2854 |
From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:27pm
Subject: Re: Viewpoint
|
| |
On Friday, Feb 27, 2004, at 13:51 US/Eastern, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> So, what I hoping is that someone will build a program to
> transliterate existing texts into Shavian, so I can more practice.
> It would be nice if their was a newspaper, even.
>
>
I have a program that I use to do my translations. However, it has
not yet been updated to the proper Unicode points, and the dictionary
of words it uses has only about 8000 words in it. As I translate more
texts, its dictionary grows. However, I have been unable to dedicate
any time to doing things (like finishing the Hans Christian Andersen
translations) for some time. I am hoping to be able to do something
about this in the summer though. You can always try to read some of
the works I have on my web site where the two most lengthy ones are the
Legend of Sleepy Hollow and A Christmas Carol.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
|
|
| 2855 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:27pm
Subject: Re: Viewpoint
|
| |
|
Hi Paul and others,
I'm glad you agree with me on certain points of interest.
Yes, I plan on transliterating the Holy Bible (Old and New
Testament). As for which version I will first do the King James
Version. Then my favorite alternate translation th New
International Version. In my last posting I mentioned the
"Standard Works" of my Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints) These include, the Holy Bible (King James Version), the
Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great
Price. [Ethan has a website concerning a transliteration of the
King James Bible into Shavian]
However, I encourage all Shavian Enthusiast, not of my faith (if
ambitious enough) to transliterate their Sacred Texts, to broaden the
horizion of Shavian.
And just like you Paul, I write with Shavian in my journal.
I think my role to the Shavian Community should be to transliterate
books into Shavian. I hope other Shavian Enthusiasts will take
the opportunaty to make academic contributions to Shavian, so that
Shavian will no longer be a "dead" alphabet, but have just
as much vitality as T.O..
Best Regards,
Carl /kRal/ paul vandenbrink wrote: Hi Carl & the group
As for the role the Shavian Alphabet should play to literate English-
speaking world:
I find literacy even with the Traditional Orthography (T.O.) to a
constant challenge to stay up to date.
That's why I prefer Shavian over the T.O.
There isn't the struggle to pick up the correct pronunciation.
A lot of new English word are borrowed from french and have a variant
pronunciation (i.e. Ouevre)
I would like to be able to read as fast with Shavian as with T.O.,
though there is not enough literature to become super-swift at
reading Shavian.
So, what I hoping is that someone will build a program to
transliterate existing texts into Shavian, so I can more practice.
It would be nice if their was a newspaper, even.
I am glad to hear that Carl intends to translate the Bible into
Shavian. A modern
translation I hope. The King James has some funny
pronunciations.
I also think that this is an ambitious but very worthwhile goal.
I think one of the first few steps to exposing the English-speaking
world to the benefits of Shavian, is to bring out Shavian books, and
then to do all the other stuff it takes to give further exposure to
Shavian Alphabet.
We have to do what we can to propogate and deseminate our favorite
writing system.
Hopefully revised enough to understandable by our American cousins.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Concerning the role Shavian should play to literate English-
speaking world: As for me I am highly literate with Traditional
Orthography (T.O.). However, I prefer Shavian over T.O.. I would
like to be just as literate with Shavian as with T.O., though there
is not enough
literature to become super-literate at reading
Shavian. So, what I would like to do is transliterate existing texts
into Shavian, once I get an internet-ready computer. And I will
first transliterate the "Standard Works" of my Church. Then I will
transliterate just about anything else the Shavian Community would
like to see into Shavian.
>
> Though, that is ambitious it is a worthwhile goal. I think one of
the first few steps to exposing the English-speaking world to the
benefits of Shavian, to bring out Shavian books, then the other stuff
it takes to give further exposure to Shavian. And that is what I
hope we can do to publicize our favorite writing system -- Shavian.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl /kRal/
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you
want.
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
|
|
| 2856 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:31pm
Subject: Re: Viewpoint
|
| |
|
Hi Scott,
I'm glad to hear you're busy transliterating on the internet.
Thanks for supporting, Shavian. :)
Carl /kRal/
Scott Harrison wrote:
On Friday, Feb 27, 2004, at 13:51 US/Eastern, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> So, what I hoping is that someone will build a program to
> transliterate existing texts into Shavian, so I can more practice.
> It would be nice if their was a newspaper, even.
>
>
I have a program that I use to do my translations. However, it has
not yet been updated to the proper Unicode points, and the dictionary
of words it uses has only about 8000 words in it. As I translate more
texts, its dictionary grows. However, I have been unable to dedicate
any time to doing things (like finishing the Hans Christian Andersen
translations) for some time. I am hoping to be able to do something
about this in the summer though. You can always try to read some of
the works I have on
my web site where the two most lengthy ones are the
Legend of Sleepy Hollow and A Christmas Carol.
--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
|
|
| 2857 |
From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:47pm
Subject: awhile back (in theory)
|
| |
|
Awhile back someone was asking if it was possible to make a
Shavian-like alphabet just as long as the T.O. alphabet. In reply
I say it's possible though of low grade quality.
I figure it out last night. It totaled 22 letters. With the corresponding letters of:
a - ash, b - bib, d - dead, e - egg, f - fee, g - gag, h - ha-ha,
i - if, k - kick, l - loll, m - mime, n - nun, o - on, p - peep, r -
roar, s - so, t - tot, u - up, v - vow, w - woe, y - yea, z - zoo.
The reason I consider this low grade is because it is inadequate
for English and would require a basic spelling reform to make sense of
English. The Original Shavian and Quickscript are however far
more superior to this glorified spelling reform, for English.
Anyways, in fun and theory, I rest my case,
Best Regards,
Carl /kRal/
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
|
|
| 2858 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:44pm
Subject: Re: Viewpoint
|
| |
The King James Version is very poetical, and has a relatively small
stack of words.
There are few minor disagreements on small number of words in the
older translations. Supposedly, the new translations are closer to
the original meaning. Anyway,
I suppose I could transliterate a modern translation of the first 5
books of Moses, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings.
That covers the important stuff from my religous point of view.
Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
______________________-attached-____________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Paul and others,
>
> I'm glad you agree with me on certain points of interest. Yes, I
plan on transliterating the Holy Bible (Old and New Testament). As
for which version I will first do the King James Version. Then my
favorite alternate translation th New International Version. In my
last posting I mentioned the "Standard Works" of my Church (The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) These include, the
Holy Bible (King James Version), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine
and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. [Ethan has a website
concerning a transliteration of the King James Bible into Shavian]
>
> However, I encourage all Shavian Enthusiast, not of my faith (if
ambitious enough) to transliterate their Sacred Texts, to broaden
the horizion of Shavian.
>
> And just like you Paul, I write with Shavian in my journal. I
think my role to the Shavian Community should be to transliterate
books into Shavian. I hope other Shavian Enthusiasts will take the
opportunaty to make academic contributions to Shavian, so that
Shavian will no longer be a "dead" alphabet, but have just as much
vitality as T.O..
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Carl /kRal/
>
> paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Carl & the group
> As for the role the Shavian Alphabet should play to literate
English-
> speaking world:
> I find literacy even with the Traditional Orthography (T.O.) to a
> constant challenge to stay up to date.
> That's why I prefer Shavian over the T.O.
> There isn't the struggle to pick up the correct pronunciation.
> A lot of new English word are borrowed from french and have a
variant
> pronunciation (i.e. Ouevre)
> I would like to be able to read as fast with Shavian as with T.O.,
> though there is not enough literature to become super-swift at
> reading Shavian.
>
> So, what I hoping is that someone will build a program to
> transliterate existing texts into Shavian, so I can more practice.
> It would be nice if their was a newspaper, even.
>
> I am glad to hear that Carl intends to translate the Bible into
> Shavian. A modern translation I hope. The King James has some
funny
> pronunciations.
>
> I also think that this is an ambitious but very worthwhile goal.
> I think one of the first few steps to exposing the English-
speaking
> world to the benefits of Shavian, is to bring out Shavian books,
and
> then to do all the other stuff it takes to give further exposure
to
> Shavian Alphabet.
> We have to do what we can to propogate and deseminate our favorite
> writing system.
> Hopefully revised enough to understandable by our American
cousins.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > Concerning the role Shavian should play to literate English-
> speaking world: As for me I am highly literate with Traditional
> Orthography (T.O.). However, I prefer Shavian over T.O.. I would
> like to be just as literate with Shavian as with T.O., though
there
> is not enough literature to become super-literate at reading
> Shavian. So, what I would like to do is transliterate existing
texts
> into Shavian, once I get an internet-ready computer. And I will
> first transliterate the "Standard Works" of my Church. Then I
will
> transliterate just about anything else the Shavian Community would
> like to see into Shavian.
> >
> > Though, that is ambitious it is a worthwhile goal. I think one
of
> the first few steps to exposing the English-speaking world to the
> benefits of Shavian, to bring out Shavian books, then the other
stuff
> it takes to give further exposure to Shavian. And that is what I
> hope we can do to publicize our favorite writing system -- Shavian.
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Carl /kRal/
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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|
| 2859 |
From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 5:56pm
Subject: A long while back - Minimal T.O. Alphabet
|
| |
Hi Karl :0
It wouldn't be that simple.
What about "J". And how would you indicate all the additional
English vowel sounds. I suppose you could use "c", for one of the
other vowel sounds. It looks small like the other vowel letters.
Also,You could use a period within the word to indicate the Adu or
Schwa sound.
Regards, Paul V.
________________attached__________________________
--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Awhile back someone was asking if it was possible to make a
Shavian-like alphabet just as long as the T.O. alphabet. In reply I
say it's possible though of low grade quality.
>
> I figure it out last night. It totaled 22 letters. With the
corresponding letters of:
>
> a - ash, b - bib, d - dead, e - egg, f - fee, g - gag, h - ha-ha,
i - if, k - kick, l - loll, m - mime, n - nun, o - on, p - peep, r -
roar, s - so, t - tot, u - up, v - vow, w - woe, y - yea, z - zoo.
>
> The reason I consider this low grade is because it is inadequate
for English and would require a basic spelling reform to make sense
of English. The Original Shavian and Quickscript are however far
more superior to this glorified spelling reform, for English.
>
> Anyways, in fun and theory, I rest my case,
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Carl /kRal/
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
|
|
| 2860 |
From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
Date: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:23pm
Subject: Bible transliteration
|
| |
Carl /kRal/ wants to transliterate the English Bible and the Book of Mormon into Shavian.
A point that hasn't been addressed here: you have to transliterate the
very large number (look at Chronicles) of proper names into Shavian,
using their received English pronunciations. I would suggesting
following the traditional diacritical mark-up in a "pronouncing King
James" Bible (does this venerable font have a name? I've never seen
one).
Do YOU know how to pronounce Chederlaomer or Jehovah-Jireh?
As this Gentile understands it, the proper names in the Book of Mormon
all possess received pronunciations which are recorded in some editions
- I wouldn't tackle "Ether" (not the anesthetic, pace Mark Twain) or
"Coriantumr" without help!
Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee and Gastonia, North Carolina
|
|
| 2861 |
From: Ethan <ethanl@3...>
Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 5:51am
Subject: Re: Bible transliteration
|
| |
RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Carl /kRal/ wants to transliterate the English Bible and the Book of
> Mormon into Shavian.
>
> A point that hasn't been addressed here: you have to transliterate the
> very large number (look at Chronicles) of proper names into Shavian,
> using their received English pronunciations. I would suggesting
> following the traditional diacritical mark-up in a "pronouncing King
> James" Bible (does this venerable font have a name? I've never seen one).
>
> Do YOU know how to pronounce Chederlaomer or Jehovah-Jireh?
>
> As this Gentile understands it, the proper names in the Book of Mormon
> all possess received pronunciations which are recorded in some editions
> - I wouldn't tackle "Ether" (not the anesthetic, pace Mark Twain) or
> "Coriantumr" without help!
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee and Gastonia, North Carolina
It's been a problem for me, as I've been working on that very thing, to
figure out what the pronunciation of many of the proper names should be.
Many of the names are well known, such as Adam (Adam, ·ð‘¨ð‘›ð‘©ð‘¥),
Moses (mOzas, ·ð‘¥ð‘´ð‘Ÿð‘©ð‘•), Abraham (EbrahAm, ·ð‘±ð‘šð‘®ð‘©ð‘£ð‘¨ð‘¥), etc.
But what to do with names like:
Elizur
Shedeur
Shelumiel
Zurishaddai
Nahshon
Amminadab
Nethaneel
Zuar
Zebulun
Eliab
Helon
Ephraim
Elishama
Ammihud
Manasseh
Gamaliel
Pedahzur
Abidan
Gideoni
Ahiezer
Ammishaddai
Pagiel
Ocran
Eliasaph
Deuel
Naphtali
Ahira
Enan
And those are just a few of the names I found in Numbers chapter 1!
There are many chapters which contain mostly names, many of them longer
and more involved than those!
The reason I haven't yet decided is because there are several ways to go
about it. I could use the diacritically marked names found in some
editions of the AV, or I could use the pronunciation most preachers use
for many of the names, or I could use my Strongs concordance, which
gives the traditional ancient Hebrew and Koine (kqnE, ·ð‘’ð‘¶ð‘¯ð‘±) Greek
pronunciations, or I could just leave them in TO and let the reader
decide! Should I choose one method, use a combination of methods, or
more than one method for each word?
Right now my main concern, though, is in getting software set up to
achieve the best results in the least amount of time. The Bible is very
large, and transliterating it in html by hand is slow, tedious work and
error prone. So I've decided to use software to assist me in the effort.
You can see what I've done so far at
http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/shavbible/
It's only a brief sample, it's out of date technically (the markup and
styling need to be redone to make it comply with web standards) and it
needs to be done in UTF-8 instead of ASCII. I was just learning about
Shavian and web page design when I did most of it, and both my spelling
and my design need some improvement!
--
·ð‘°ð‘”ð‘©ð‘¯ - Ethan
|
|
| 2862 |
From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
Date: Mon Mar 1, 2004 10:32pm
Subject: Re: Bible transliteration
|
| |
Ethan notes about transliterating the Bible:
>>I
could use the diacritically marked names found in some editions of the
AV [KJV], or I could use the pronunciation most preachers use for many
of the names, or I could use my Strongs concordance, which gives the
traditional ancient Hebrew and Koine (kqnE, ¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®¢®) Greek pronunciations, or I could just leave them in TO and let the reader decide!<<
The task here is to transliterate the English bible, with all its
strange received pronunciations of Hebrew names, usually as they were
filtered through the Greek of the Septuagint and/or the Latin of the
Vulgate. This is after all how the Bible is read out loud in church.
Every language has traditions of received pronunciations of biblical
names.
The received pronunciation used in a pronouncing King James bible is
sometimes not the only pronunciation in use, but I don't see any other
way to deal with the long lists of obscure names that fill the
historical books of the Hebrew scriptures, and the "begats" in the
Gospels.
Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee
|
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