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3493

From: Joe <allegrox_2000@y...>
Date: Fri Nov 5, 2004 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Cambridge English Dictionaries Online - Back to Phonetics

 
I found it. I was just wondering if the interactive dictionary was
different, since I didn't see that anywhere.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe
> If your click on the word Dictionary or Dictionaries at the top of
> the page you will get a list of dictionaries. Just put the word
you
> want to look up in the search field and clik search.
> Only the Learners, Advanced Learners, and American English
> Dictionaries have the option to show phonetics. Click on the
option.
>
> The dictionary seems to be a rather large subset of their regular
> printed dictionary.
>
> Does that answer your question?
>
> Regards, Paul V.
3494

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sat Nov 6, 2004 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Cambridge English Dictionaries Online - Back to Phonetics

 
Hi Joe
I think it just comes up with the advanced learner's dictionary by
default as the interactive. But I think all the listed dictionaries
have an interactive interface.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> I found it. I was just wondering if the interactive dictionary
was
> different, since I didn't see that anywhere.
>
3495

From: ispjyqoy <ispjyqoy@y...>
Date: Sun Nov 7, 2004 4:32am
Subject: i did refinance for much less

 
hey all

I recently re-financed my mortgage for free even though I have BAD credit. They even gave me a great rate! Take a look at this service...

http://www.pro-mortgage.biz/azwh1







I posted this on shavian, if you dont want to be a member anymore just email shavian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
3496

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 5:13am
Subject: Re: Learning to Read with Shavian

 
Paul,

I think it could be much easier that you describe in a one sound per
symbol system. Here is why:

At the University of Chicago Lab school, 5 and 6 year old children
were simply given the Unifon sound-symbol correspondence chart and
told to start writing notes to each other. Some preschool kids
picked up the code in a half hour and started helping their peers.
It took about 3 weeks for all the kids to learn the code and about 3
months to overlearn it. All were code literate at the end of 3
months.

Laubach demonstrated that any highly phonemic writing system can be
learned in 3 months. So it is not unusual that English could also be
learned in 3 months if it were written in Shavian or some other
highly phonemic code. Lauback developed literacy materials for over
300 languages.

What is achieved is code literacy, not literacy in the traditional
code. All of the children mastered Unifon in a 3 month writing to
read program. They could write any word they could pronounce and
pronounce any word written in the Unifon code.

Laubach's test was the ability to read a newspaper. The Unifon test
would be reading a transcribed newspaper but understanding would be
limited by the fact that some words in the article would not be in
the children's speech vocabulary. They might be able to read aloud
the transcribed news, but they would not necessarily be able to
understand what they were saying.

The key to over-learning the code is the writing to read approach
and the emphasis of peer to pear learning. You do not need to
explain why. Learning 40 sound-signs permit you to express yourself
and write notes to your friends.

For a Shavian - Unifon correspondence table see
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/14-unifon-ipa-shavian16.gif

The whole article can be found at
http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shavian-short.html

For another article on Shavian see
http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j31/shawbett.html

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink" wrote:

> I found some instructions on teaching Children an new Alphabet in
4 steps. Any comments or corrections?

> $ Steps to Literacy

> 1. If the class is monolingual then a good way to start is by
giving them the corresponding sounds in their mother tongue (if
there is a contrast - it makes your task even simpler!- tell them
that's why they need to learn it! At any rate, try just one or two
sounds per class until you have covered all 46 Basic Shaw letters.

> http://www.developingteachers.com/phonology/sound_activities1.htm
> Interesting ideas for teaching phonetics
3497

From: Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 5:54am
Subject: Re: Don't Let Spam get you down.

 
Paul, Star, Hugh, and others,

To avoid spam, usual solution is to close the group and require
people to apply for membership. I have done this with one group and
we have been 100% successful.

Spammers do not go to the trouble of explaining why they want to
join the group. This is part of the application process.

Otherwise, you have to ban those who post an off-topic message and
delete the spam. They sometimes come back under a new alias. The
rate of spamming drops to about one or two off-topic message per
quarter. The Shavian group seems to get up to 3 a week.

As I understand it, the person who first moderated Shavian cannot be
found and so it is not possible for him to shift moderators.

I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.

The problem is that the existing Shavian archive will eventually be
lost.

Perhaps someone can volunteer to go back through the archive at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian
and save all of the good posts.

--Steve


--- "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:

> Hi Everybody

> I don't really see the problem. Create a new Yahoo group called
> ShawAlef; and if that gets spammed we go to ShawBet. We put a
> note in Shavianredirecting New users to ShawAlef.
> Can we put forward 2 names together for Moderator, so that G-d
> Forbid, if someone dies or disappears, we can still keep the
> ShawAlef Yahoo Group going.
> I hope Hugh will be one of the Moderators.

> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. We can leave the old Shavian group alive while we switch
> current activity to the Yahoo ShawAlef group.
3498

From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 6:00am
Subject: Re: Re: Don't Let Spam get you down.

 
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:54:05 -0000, Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
>
> To avoid spam, usual solution is to close the group and require
> people to apply for membership.

Um, but this requires the group's moderator (or whatever it's called)
to do so, no? And the moderator for this group is MIA. Otherwise I'm
fairly confident something similar would have been done already.

> Otherwise, you have to ban those who post an off-topic message

I imagine that again, only a moderator can do this.

> and delete the spam.

ditto ditto.

> As I understand it, the person who first moderated Shavian cannot be
> found and so it is not possible for him to shift moderators.

That is my understanding.

> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.

Meh. I'd prefer something on shavian.org but I believe mailing lists
there have no provision for web archives, which is something that
people value, I take it. I'll go with what other people vote for,
though.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
3499

From: Scott Harrison <scott@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 0:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Don't Let Spam get you down.

 
On Nov 9, 2004, at 07:00, Philip Newton wrote:

>
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:54:05 -0000, Steve Bett <stbett@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
>> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.
>
> Meh. I'd prefer something on shavian.org but I believe mailing lists
> there have no provision for web archives, which is something that
> people value, I take it. I'll go with what other people vote for,
> though.
>
>
If we set up a mailing list on shavian.org it will be using mailman,
which does provide for web-based archives. What I do not believe it
provides is a way to post a mail message from a webpage. However, that
may have changed in more recent versions (which I am not currently
running but may be able to upgrade). Also, what I do not want to set
up on my server is a general ftp upload capability. If there is a
clamoring for being able to upload things using ftp I may research how
to do it as securely as possible. But that will be a more longterm
issue.

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑 ·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Attachment: (text/enriched) [not stored]
Attachment: (application/pkcs7-signature) smime.p7s [not stored]
3500

From: Joe <allegrox_2000@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 9, 2004 4:49pm
Subject: Re: Learning to Read with Shavian

 
That's an interesting article. I couldn't read the keyboard Unifon
or the others, even though I've studied them a little, but I breezed
right through the Shavian at a rate that surprized even myself,
until I got to the word "appreciated", which is not spelled the way
I pronounce it.
I've found that Shavian was easier to learn than I first expected.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> I think it could be much easier that you describe in a one sound
per
> symbol system. Here is why:
>
> At the University of Chicago Lab school, 5 and 6 year old children
> were simply given the Unifon sound-symbol correspondence chart and
> told to start writing notes to each other. Some preschool kids
> picked up the code in a half hour and started helping their peers.
> It took about 3 weeks for all the kids to learn the code and about
3
> months to overlearn it. All were code literate at the end of 3
> months.
>
> Laubach demonstrated that any highly phonemic writing system can
be
> learned in 3 months. So it is not unusual that English could also
be
> learned in 3 months if it were written in Shavian or some other
> highly phonemic code. Lauback developed literacy materials for
over
> 300 languages.
>
> What is achieved is code literacy, not literacy in the traditional
> code. All of the children mastered Unifon in a 3 month writing to
> read program. They could write any word they could pronounce and
> pronounce any word written in the Unifon code.
>
> Laubach's test was the ability to read a newspaper. The Unifon
test
> would be reading a transcribed newspaper but understanding would
be
> limited by the fact that some words in the article would not be in
> the children's speech vocabulary. They might be able to read
aloud
> the transcribed news, but they would not necessarily be able to
> understand what they were saying.
>
> The key to over-learning the code is the writing to read approach
> and the emphasis of peer to pear learning. You do not need to
> explain why. Learning 40 sound-signs permit you to express
yourself
> and write notes to your friends.
>
> For a Shavian - Unifon correspondence table see
> http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/14-unifon-ipa-shavian16.gif
>
> The whole article can be found at
> http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shavian-short.html
>
> For another article on Shavian see
> http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j31/shawbett.html
3501

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:46am
Subject: A new Yahoo Group just for messages.

 
Hi Steve, Scott and Phil
Again I don't see what the problem is.
Why does the solution have to be so complicated?
We can have 2 Yahoo Groups, Shavian and ShawAlphabet.
We retain the old Yahoo group for Archive purposes and as a Spam trap.
We can't get rid of it anyway, so we might as well keep
it and keep an Eye on it and occasionally redirect people to the
new active Shavian Group (ShawAlphabet or Shawbet).
Maybe Scott can add a new link to the new Group on the portal page
for Shavian.org and mark the old Yahoo group as inactive.
Very little work involved doing it that way.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Nov 9, 2004, at 07:00, Philip Newton wrote:
>
> >
> > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 05:54:05 -0000, Steve Bett <stbett@y...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the
best
> >> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.
> >
> > Meh. I'd prefer something on shavian.org but I believe mailing
lists
> > there have no provision for web archives, which is something that
> > people value, I take it. I'll go with what other people vote for,
> > though.
3502

From: <stbetta@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:56am
Subject: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
 FAQ - Shavian  Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
by Paul Vanderbrink [PV]  Glosses by Steve Bett [SB

PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate replacement for the old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been designed to write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman alphabet was designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has become the alphabet of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary alphabet for written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the time, that the writing of English.

SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols system suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more compact and faster to write.  Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would win converts due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so the new spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly. 
 

Who created the Shaw alphabet?
SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet code as early as 1941.  He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech sounds and he did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling.  His model was phonemic shorthand.  In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to fund the development of a new alphabet.  The will was contested and only a small sum [less than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal.  The group that controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with such limited funds was to run a contest.  The alphabet displayed on this page was designed by Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.

PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic requirements, in 1958. Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or surpassed the requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of these 4 proposals. Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority of the design. He also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet called Quickscript.
Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to streamline an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated in this book by the author.

SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British alphabet. He himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the advantages of phonemic writing.  Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to print.  Shaw was impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected to the focus on abbreviation. 

Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the preface to the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw.  He showed Shaw his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's requirements.  Shaw encouraged his efforts.

In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his linguistic ideas. The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British Museum and other charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.  Shaw's fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of My Fair Lady.  Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune, about £8000, would be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
 

Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw alphabet, but they have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact vowel sounds for the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates just the kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal vowels hold the syllables together.

The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific vowel sound preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw vowel marker indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal Stop. A vowel marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the type of vowel. For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized vowel or Schwa. A vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation. There may be as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one particular vowel marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.

The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel letter combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y" and also adds the silent "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel sounds used by English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and vowel letter combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent the same sound. The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety of vowel sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and consistently.

3503

From: Isaac Penzev <isaacp@u...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:44am
Subject: Re: Don't Let Spam get you down.

 
Steve Bett wrote:

> To avoid spam, usual solution is to close the group and require
> people to apply for membership. I have done this with one group and
> we have been 100% successful.

By all means this is the best solution. I lived through this in another
group, and indeed it helped. An alternative for application can be
moderating the pending messages of new members, and to accept or reject them
(together with banning the sender). In this case only the moderator will get
spam, and do filtering manually.

> I will be glad to start a group called Shawbet (if that is the best
> name) and invite all of the non-spammers to this group.

Though for most time I'm just a lurker here, I would eagerly join it.

-- Isaac
3504

From: Newton, Philip <Philip.Newton@g...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03am
Subject: Re: A new Yahoo Group just for messages.

 
paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Why does the solution have to be so complicated?
> We can have 2 Yahoo Groups, Shavian and ShawAlphabet.
> We retain the old Yahoo group for Archive purposes and as a Spam trap.
> We can't get rid of it anyway, so we might as well keep it
> and keep an Eye on it and occasionally redirect people to the
> new active Shavian Group (ShawAlphabet or Shawbet).

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Cheers,
Philip
3505

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 0:49pm
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
Very good, very good. Combine what you have and answer some of the
other usual questions, and I think we'll have a pretty darned good faq.

I supposed I need to do a little more shaw reading, and
transliterating. Hey, I'm working on it!

--Star
--- stbetta@a... wrote:

> FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
> What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
> by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]
> PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate replacement
> for the
> old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been
> designed to
> write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman alphabet
> was
> designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has become
> the alphabet
> of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary alphabet
> for
> written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the time,
> that the
> writing of English.
> SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols
> system
> suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
> Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more
> compact and
> faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would win
> converts
> due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so the
> new
> spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.
>
> Who created the Shaw alphabet?
> SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet code
> as early
> as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech
> sounds and he
> did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His model
> was
> phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to
> fund the
> development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a
> small sum [less
> than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal. The
> group that
> controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with such
> limited
> funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page was
> designed by
> Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.
>
> PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic requirements,
> in 1958.
> Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or surpassed the
>
> requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of these
> 4 proposals.
> Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority of
> the design. He
> also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet called
> Quickscript.
> Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to
> streamline
> an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated in
> this book by
> the author.
> SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British
> alphabet. He
> himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the advantages of
> phonemic
> writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to print.
> Shaw was
> impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected to the
> focus on
> abbreviation.
> Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the
> preface to
> the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw. He
> showed Shaw
> his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's
> requirements.
> Shaw encouraged his efforts.
> In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his
> linguistic ideas.
> The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British Museum
> and other
> charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.
> Shaw's
> fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of My
> Fair Lady.
> Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune, about
> £8000, would
> be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
>
> Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw alphabet,
> but they
> have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact vowel
> sounds for
> the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates
> just the
> kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal vowels
> hold the
> syllables together.
>
> The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific
> vowel sound
> preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw vowel
> marker
> indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal
> Stop. A vowel
> marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the type of
> vowel.
> For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized vowel or
> Schwa. A
> vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation. There
> may be
> as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one
> particular vowel
> marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.
>
> The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel letter
> combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y" and
> also adds the silent
> "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel
> sounds used by
> English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and vowel
> letter
> combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent the
> same sound.
> The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety of
> vowel
> sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and
> consistently.
>


=====
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
3506

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:18pm
Subject: RE: A new Yahoo Group just for messages.

 
Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...

I've created the new group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.

Pop along and sign up. Haven't a lot of time to say or do more at the moment
as I'm on lunch break...

Hugh B

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Newton, Philip [mailto:Philip.Newton@g...]
> Sent: 10 November 2004 10:04
> To: 'shavian@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: Re: [shavian] A new Yahoo Group just for messages.
>
>
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > Why does the solution have to be so complicated?
> > We can have 2 Yahoo Groups, Shavian and ShawAlphabet.
> > We retain the old Yahoo group for Archive purposes and as a Spam trap.
> > We can't get rid of it anyway, so we might as well keep it
> > and keep an Eye on it and occasionally redirect people to the
> > new active Shavian Group (ShawAlphabet or Shawbet).
>
> Sounds like a good idea to me.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
3507

From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:35pm
Subject: Re: A new Yahoo Group just for messages.

 
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:18:17 -0000, Hugh Birkenhead
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
>
> Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...
>
> I've created the new group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.

I've also asked Scott to create a group on shavian.org (also by the
"let's go ahead and do something" token).

May the more popular one win :p

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
3508

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:19pm
Subject: Re: A new Yahoo Group just for messages.

 
Just make sure there is a link to everything from www.shavian.org.
Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:18:17 -0000, Hugh Birkenhead
> <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> >
> > Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...
> >
> > I've created the new group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.
>
> I've also asked Scott to create a group on shavian.org (also by the
> "let's go ahead and do something" token).
>
> May the more popular one win :p
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>
3509

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:28pm
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
Hi Scott
You included mention of the Shaw Vowel Marker in your FAQS.
That doesn't exist in the original Shavian Alphabet.
It was an enhancement to allow accented variations of the same
word to be written in a Standard, albeit slightly generic form.
It handles things like the Aussie vowel shift, in much the same way
that the special Rhotic Letters in the Original Shaw Alphabet allow
a RP accented English and a Rhotic American English to be written
withmore or less with the same letters.
You should probably remove reference to it from your FAQS.
We don't want to confuse anyone.

Regards, Paul V.
__________________attached___________________________________________


--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Very good, very good. Combine what you have and answer some of the
> other usual questions, and I think we'll have a pretty darned good
faq.
>
> I supposed I need to do a little more shaw reading, and
> transliterating. Hey, I'm working on it!
>
> --Star
> --- stbetta@a... wrote:
>
> > FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
> > What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
> > by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]
> > PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate
replacement
> > for the
> > old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been
> > designed to
> > write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman
alphabet
> > was
> > designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has
become
> > the alphabet
> > of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary
alphabet
> > for
> > written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the
time,
> > that the
> > writing of English.
> > SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols
> > system
> > suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
> > Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more
> > compact and
> > faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would
win
> > converts
> > due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so
the
> > new
> > spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.
> >
> > Who created the Shaw alphabet?
> > SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet
code
> > as early
> > as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech
> > sounds and he
> > did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His
model
> > was
> > phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune
to
> > fund the
> > development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a
> > small sum [less
> > than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal.
The
> > group that
> > controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with
such
> > limited
> > funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page
was
> > designed by
> > Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.
> >
> > PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic
requirements,
> > in 1958.
> > Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or
surpassed the
> >
> > requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of
these
> > 4 proposals.
> > Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority
of
> > the design. He
> > also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet
called
> > Quickscript.
> > Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to
> > streamline
> > an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated
in
> > this book by
> > the author.
> > SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British
> > alphabet. He
> > himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the
advantages of
> > phonemic
> > writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to
print.
> > Shaw was
> > impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected
to the
> > focus on
> > abbreviation.
> > Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the
> > preface to
> > the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw.
He
> > showed Shaw
> > his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's
> > requirements.
> > Shaw encouraged his efforts.
> > In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his
> > linguistic ideas.
> > The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British
Museum
> > and other
> > charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.
> > Shaw's
> > fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of
My
> > Fair Lady.
> > Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune,
about
> > ?000, would
> > be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
> >
> > Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw
alphabet,
> > but they
> > have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact
vowel
> > sounds for
> > the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates
> > just the
> > kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal
vowels
> > hold the
> > syllables together.
> >
> > The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific
> > vowel sound
> > preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw
vowel
> > marker
> > indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal
> > Stop. A vowel
> > marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the
type of
> > vowel.
> > For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized
vowel or
> > Schwa. A
> > vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation.
There
> > may be
> > as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one
> > particular vowel
> > marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.
> >
> > The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel
letter
> > combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y"
and
> > also adds the silent
> > "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel
> > sounds used by
> > English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and
vowel
> > letter
> > combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent
the
> > same sound.
> > The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety
of
> > vowel
> > sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and
> > consistently.
> >
>
>
> =====
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com
3510

From:   Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
Date: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:07pm
Subject: RE: A new Yahoo Group just for messages.

 
> > Alright, time to stop talking and start doing...
> >
> > I've created the new group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/.
>
> I've also asked Scott to create a group on shavian.org (also by the
> "let's go ahead and do something" token).
>
> May the more popular one win :p
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@g...>

Personally, as far as this community is concerned, I'd much rather upgrade
the Shavian forum software and move the discussion there... Email will never
be a good enough way to communicate in Shavian because most mailreaders just
can't display the fonts and/or Unicode properly.

Anyway, mustn't grumble...

The ShawAlphabet list has now got 6 members as I write this, let's hope that
figure continues to rise.

Hugh
3511

From: Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:34am
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
Hey, wait a minute, what's this stuff near the end about vowel markers?
Is this another attempt to pass Paul's modified Shaw alphabet off as
straight Shavian?

Star Raven incurred the wrath of Bob on Nov 10, by saying

>
>Very good, very good. Combine what you have and answer some of the
>other usual questions, and I think we'll have a pretty darned good faq.
>
>I supposed I need to do a little more shaw reading, and
>transliterating. Hey, I'm working on it!
>
>--Star
>--- stbetta@a... wrote:
>
>> FAQ - Shavian Additional Glosses and comments welcomed:
>> What is the Shaw or Shavian alphabet?
>> by Paul Vanderbrink [PV] Glosses by Steve Bett [SB]
>> PV: The Shaw alphabet is a modern, phonetically accurate replacement
>> for the
>> old Roman alphabet to write English. The Shaw alphabet has been
>> designed to
>> write modern English more quickly and effectively. The Roman alphabet
>> was
>> designed specifically for Latin, over 2,600 years ago, and has become
>> the alphabet
>> of choice for hundreds of languages. It became the customary alphabet
>> for
>> written English, as Latin was the language of education, at the time,
>> that the
>> writing of English.
>> SB: The Shaw alphabet is a non-Roman, near 100% phonemic, symbols
>> system
>> suitable for writing English as it is spoken.
>> Systems with one symbol per sound and no silent letters are more
>> compact and
>> faster to write. Shaw saw it as a parallel alphabet which would win
>> converts
>> due to its superiority. Shaw recommended a new set of letters so the
>> new
>> spellings would not be considered uneducated or ugly.
>>
>> Who created the Shaw alphabet?
>> SB: Shaw specified the linguistic requirements for an alphabet code
>> as early
>> as 1941. He wanted one unequivocal symbol for 42 English speech
>> sounds and he
>> did not want it to be confused with traditional spelling. His model
>> was
>> phonemic shorthand. In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to
>> fund the
>> development of a new alphabet. The will was contested and only a
>> small sum [less
>> than $20,000] was made available to carry out Shaw's proposal. The
>> group that
>> controlled the funds decided that the best they could do with such
>> limited
>> funds was to run a contest. The alphabet displayed on this page was
>> designed by
>> Kingsley Read, the winner of the Shaw alphabet competition.
>>
>> PV: A contest was announced specifying the linguistic requirements,
>> in 1958.
>> Four contestants submitted alphabet schemes that met or surpassed the
>>
>> requirements. The Shaw Alphabet was created from an amalgam of these
>> 4 proposals.
>> Kingsley Read, an architect and designer, provided the majority of
>> the design. He
>> also created a script or cursive version of the Shaw alphabet called
>> Quickscript.
>> Further revisions to remove some confusing spiral letters and to
>> streamline
>> an overly complex vowel design were successful and incorporated in
>> this book by
>> the author.
>> SB: In 1941, Shaw specified the goal for his proposed British
>> alphabet. He
>> himself used Pitman shorthand and was familiar with the advantages of
>> phonemic
>> writing. Pitman, however, was not linear and difficult to print.
>> Shaw was
>> impressed with Sweet's "current" linear shorthand but objected to the
>> focus on
>> abbreviation.
>> Kingsley Read was impressed with the essay which appeared as the
>> preface to
>> the book, The Miraculous Birth of Language, and contacted Shaw. He
>> showed Shaw
>> his early attempts to build a phonemic notation to match Shaw's
>> requirements.
>> Shaw encouraged his efforts.
>> In his will, Shaw left most of his fortune to advancing his
>> linguistic ideas.
>> The will was challenged by lawyers representing the British Museum
>> and other
>> charities on the grounds that you can't leave money to an idea.
>> Shaw's
>> fortune did not amount to much until the spectacular success of My
>> Fair Lady.
>> Pitman negotiated a deal whereby a small amount of the fortune, about
>> £8000, would
>> be used to fulfill the terms of the will.
>>
>> Both vowel letters and vowel markers are part of the Shaw alphabet,
>> but they
>> have different functions. The Shaw Letters indicate the exact vowel
>> sounds for
>> the key vowels of a written word. The Shaw Vowel Marker indicates
>> just the
>> kind of vowel used in the written word and how the internal vowels
>> hold the
>> syllables together.
>>
>> The main or Primary Shaw vowel letters each represents a specific
>> vowel sound
>> preceded by a Glottal Stop in order to make it emphatic. A Shaw vowel
>> marker
>> indicates the presence of a vowel, without an associated Glottal
>> Stop. A vowel
>> marker does not indicate the specific vowel. It indicates the type of
>> vowel.
>> For example, whether it is a long, short, double, half sized vowel or
>> Schwa. A
>> vowel marker does not necessarily give an exact pronunciation. There
>> may be
>> as many as 6 different vowel sounds, represented by any one
>> particular vowel
>> marker. Or as few a one vowel sound in the case of a Schwa.
>>
>> The Roman alphabet uses over 30 of vowel letters and vowel letter
>> combinations made up from "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", "w" and "y" and
>> also adds the silent
>> "e" to the end of the word to indicate many of the various vowel
>> sounds used by
>> English. Unfortunately, all of those various vowel letters and vowel
>> letter
>> combinations are not logical and do not consistently represent the
>> same sound.
>> The Shaw alphabet uses a system, that can handle a wider variety of
>> vowel
>> sounds and their combinations and represent them accurately and
>> consistently.
>>
>
>
>=====
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
>Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz
3512

From: Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:39am
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
Whoops, I'm a little behind on my mail. Paul already caught this, no
mischief was intended on anyone's part. Sorry for going off half-cocked
there, although if I'm lucky it helped to draw Steve's attention more
urgently to the error.

Bob Schmertz incurred the wrath of Bob on Nov 10, by saying

>
>Hey, wait a minute, what's this stuff near the end about vowel markers?
>Is this another attempt to pass Paul's modified Shaw alphabet off as
>straight Shavian?
>

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz
3513

From:   Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:46pm
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
Hey, I incurred no wrath, I missed the vowel marker thing myself. I
must have wandered off by the end...

--Star

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:

>
> Hey, wait a minute, what's this stuff near the end about vowel
> markers?
> Is this another attempt to pass Paul's modified Shaw alphabet off as
> straight Shavian?
>
> Star Raven incurred the wrath of Bob on Nov 10, by saying


=====
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
3514

From: <stbetta@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:12pm
Subject: Cambridge IPA phonetics and conversion

 

Hí ol alfàbetérz,

This is an experiment in embedded graphics.  If you can't view all the elements on this page, please contact me.  stbett@yahoo.com

According to this CUP analysis, the only difference between the sound categories used by British and American speakers is with respect to the short and long /oU/. 
Non-rhotics will also drop the before a consonant. 
 
I think that Shavian is rhotic in its display.  However, non-rhotics will probably pronounce the sound signs according to their dialect.
 
The chart provides a more compact representation of the same information.
However, some people have difficulty reading tabular data.  If you have a problem interpreting this chart, please contact me at stbett@yahoo.com
 
If you cannot see the chart go to the file section on the following URL
 
 

 
 
------- 
 
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm

Phonetics

By default, phonetics are not displayed in dictionary entries. To enable them, check the 'Display phonetics' box when you perform your search.

Note: The phonetics feature is currently only available within the Cambridge International Dictionary of English and the Cambridge Dictionary of American English.

Pronunciation

vowels

long vowels
sheep
farm
coo
horse
bird
short vowels
ship head
hat above
foot mother (US)
sock (UK)
cup

consonants

voiced
book
day
give
very
the
zoo
vision
jump
look
run
yes
we
moon
name
sing
hand
voiceless
pen
town
cat
fish
think
say
she
cheese

diphthongs

day
eye
boy
mouth
nose (UK)
nose (US)
ear (UK)
hair (UK)
pure (UK)

Other symbols

restaurant
happy
butter (US)
influenza
little

can be pronounced either etc.
label  

r linking r is pronounced only before a vowel in British English:

four four apples

main stress
expectation
secondary stress
retell
. syllable division
system
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/help/phonetics.htm
Attachment: (image/gif) 40-ipa-16c.gif [not stored]
Attachment: (image/gif) btn-ipa-red.gif [not stored]
3515

From: <stbetta@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:26pm
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to Shavian.
Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
 
I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as a draft only.
I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's proposals and the
accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
 
My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be clearly indicated as
a revision. 
 
I have a revision called PMF.  The rationale for this revision was to make
the character shapes historical. 
 
I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
 
comments appreciated.
 
-Steve
 
 
3516

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:05am
Subject: Re: What is the shaw alphabet? and other FAQ's

 
Good Gracious. I have made a number of proposals for simplifying the
Shaw Alphabet and making it more consistent over the years.
I took a quick look and there was discussion around June 16, 2002
and another one on July 13, 2003. I am certain there are a number of
others.
My most extreme modification of the Shavian Alphabet is called the
Revised Shaw Abjad and a description of it can be found on
www.omniglot.com in the section on alternate writing systems for
those writing systems invented by visitors to this site.
Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
to the Shaw Alphabet.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.

___________________attached______________________________________

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
Shavian.
> Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
>
> I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as a
draft only.
> I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's proposals
and the
> accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
>
> My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be clearly
indicated as
> a revision.
>
> I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision was
to make
> the character shapes historical.
> http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
>
> I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
>
> comments appreciated.
>
> -Steve
3517

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:26pm
Subject: Switching to the New Shaw Alphabet Forum

 
Hi Steve
I hope everybody is switching over to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum on
Yahoo Groups. It is easy if you go in through www.shavian.org.
Anyway I started up a few new threads over there to get things going.
I hope people will finish up any incomplete threads here and then
put their new questions and comments out on the new Forum.
Some of our older members are no longer active, or all lurked out as
I like to put it, so we will be able to get a better idea of the
Shaw Alphabet community over there on the "Shaw Alphabet" forum.

Regards, Paul V.

Hey Scott
Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
to the Shaw Alphabet.
>
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.
>
> ___________________attached______________________________________
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
> Shavian.
> > Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
> >
> > I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as
a
> draft only.
> > I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's
proposals
> and the
> > accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
> >
> > My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be
clearly
> indicated as
> > a revision.
> >
> > I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision
was
> to make
> > the character shapes historical.
> > http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
> >
> > I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
> >
> > comments appreciated.
> >
> > -Steve
3518

From: <stbetta@a...>
Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:11pm
Subject: Re: Switching to the New Shaw Alphabet Forum

 
Hi Paul,
 
Thanks for the approximate dates for the discussion of your revision proposals.
 
I will eventually get around to looking them up.
 
I have enrolled in one of the new discussion groups.
 
Perhaps you can restate your rationale for making changes.
 
I think most of your proposed changes involve making Shavian easier to learn and use.
 
1. The classic shaw alphabet contains two clerical errors.
2. The classic shaw alphabet combined printers detail with what writer's needed.
   For instance, there is no need to have more than one way to write a combination of sound signs. 
3.
 
 
 
Hi Steve
I hope everybody is switching over to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum on
Yahoo Groups. It is easy if you go in through www.shavian.org.
Anyway I started up a few new threads over there to get things going.
I hope people will finish up any incomplete threads here and then
put their new questions and comments out on the new Forum.
Some of our older members are no longer active, or all lurked out as
I like to put it, so we will be able to get a better idea of the
Shaw Alphabet community over there on the "Shaw Alphabet" forum.

Regards, Paul V. 

Hey Scott
Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
to the Shaw Alphabet.
>
> Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.
>
> ___________________attached______________________________________
>
> --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
> Shavian.
> > Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
> >
> > I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses as
a
> draft only.
> > I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's
proposals
> and the
> > accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
> >
> > My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be
clearly
> indicated as
> > a revision. 
> >
> > I have a revision called PMF.  The rationale for this revision
was
> to make
> > the character shapes historical. 
> > http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
> >
> > I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
> >
> > comments appreciated.
> >
> > -Steve
3519

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:56am
Subject: Rationalization of the Shaw Alphabet for American Consumption

 
Hi Steve
Thanks for those suggestions. I have a better idea what changes
you are willing to consider. Let me present my rationale.
It has evolved since my last polemic, so I suspect it might better
received.
Let me first present a couple of my assumptions, so you will know
where I am coming from.
1. I think the Shavian Alphabet is an incredibly useful tool for
representing the English succinctly, efficiently and logically.
There is no comparison possible with the out-dated Roman Alphabet.
2. Nevertheless, the Shavian Alphabet is almost totally unknown among
English speakers. Even English Teachers and Professors of Linguistics
are only occassionally aware of this Alphabet.
3. This situation of ignorance is even worse, if that were possible
among American English Speakers, Writers, Teachers and Professors.
4. Among the people who do learn of the Shavian Alphabet, only
minority master it. Typically, they are people with specialized
training in pronuciation, people with some University level education
in Phonetics and Linguistics, or Language Hobbyists (CONLANG
Builders).
People with a British or RP Accent seem to be more successful at
mastering the Shavian Alphabet.
5. If not for retentive ability of the Internet to focus disparate
interests on arcane and esoteric subjects, the Shaw Alphabet would
probably have fallen on the scrap heap of History.
By the way, I am not saying the Shavian Alphabet is esoteric or even
eccentric.

So given this information, I would like to provide a subset of the
Shavian Alphabet tailored specifically for American speakers.
Not for all American Speakers, but for those American's speaking the
simple Mid-western accent that is accepted nationally in the United
States as standard American English.
I would like to provide a simple Manual to teach that subset that
would be available on-line.

There is actually a American Dictionary available that lists the
23,000 of the most common English words with their English
pronunciation in the International Phonetic Alphabet.
It is called NTC's Dictionary of American English Pronunciation,
by Bernard Silverstein, published in 1995. No reprints apparently,
unfortunately.

Let me list the simplifications this Dictionary uses.
1. It doesn't distinguish between "Ado" and "Up". It uses the Schwa
symbol for both.
2. It doesn't distinguish between "On" and "Ah"
3. It doesn't distinguish between "Array" and "Err" (Urge) Rhotic
Letters.
4. It doesn't have the 4 other Rhotic Letters, "Are", "Or", "Air"
and "Ear" at all.
5. It doesn't have special symbols for some funny English sound
combinations (i.e. Yew, Ian). They are simply spelled out with
individual IPA letters.

Just consider that if equivalent changes where used to create the
American Shaw Alphabet subset, it would reduce the number of Shavian
Vowel Letters
from 24 to 15.

To be honest this Dictionary does make one distinction that the
Shavian Alphabet disregards.

1. It does distinguish between the "w" and the "wh" sound.
I suspect this distinction will disappear with time in any case.
So lets leave it out of the Equation.

But we can see that to most American Speakers, the English vowel
sounds are much less complicated. And then they have to face the
Shavian Alphabet's 24 different distinctions.

I don't hesitate to say that I think the complexity of the Shaw Vowel
system needs to be explained to American ears, trying to learn the
Shaw Alphabet. And if they just can't hear the distinction, they need
simple rules to follow, to avoid picking letters at Random.

For example, I consistently always use the Shaw Letter "Array" when
this Rhotic sound ends a syllable, and I only use the "Err" letter to
represent the similar sound when a consonant follows it in the
syllable as in the word, "Urge" or "purge".

As a Canadian, even though I speak with more of an American accent,
I am fairly familar with the common British accents. We have a lot of
Brits and South African's over here, and access to BBC and ITV
televison shows. So unless a Cockney buttonholes me I can get by.
But most Americans just don't hear some of these vowel sound
distinctions in the Shaw Alphabet.

So that's the problem.
I am willing to discuss any of a number of possible solutions except
the status quo.

My preference would be a modest proposal. Create the Subset for
Americans. Explain the mechanics of the Schwa. Explain Rhotic Letters.
Reduce the Vowel Letters from 24 to 21, by telling Americans to limit
themselves to one of "On" and "Ah"
one of "Array" and "Err" (Urge)
"Eat"+"Ado" instead of "Ian"

This would eliminate the American predicament of having more than one
way to write a common sound.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. As far as your concern about Ha-Ha and Hung being reversed.
I think that is clerical mistake that you are taking about.
These sounds are not voiced/unvoiced sound pair in any case.
And these sounds are quite disimilar in any case.
"Hung" is a Nasal sound and "Ha-Ha" is an aspirate.
Hypothetically speaking,
I would not reverse them. There is a less confusing solution.
As suggested in an earlier post, I would raise "Ha-Ha" from a Deep
position to a Tall position, leaving the letter the same.
Now, "Hang" as Nasal sound should resemble Mem and Noon and be in the
Short position like the other 2 Nasal sounds. Perhaps if you rotated
the Noon a few degrees, you would get
a letter resembling a large Tilde, which could be used for Hung.
Or you could just shrink or squash the "Hung" down.

P.S. Almost any drastic solution at this point would only create more
confusion, which should be avoided.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the approximate dates for the discussion of your
revision
> proposals.
>
> I will eventually get around to looking them up.
>
> I have enrolled in one of the new discussion groups.
>
> Perhaps you can restate your rationale for making changes.
>
> I think most of your proposed changes involve making Shavian easier
to learn
> and use.
>
> 1. The classic shaw alphabet contains two clerical errors.
> 2. The classic shaw alphabet combined printers detail with what
writer's needed.
3 For instance, there is no need to have more than one way to write
a combination of sound signs.
3520

From: <stbetta@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 0:27pm
Subject: Universal fonetik alphabet

 
Paul,
 
The problem with Shavian, at least as currently configured, is that it take too long for most to learn 100 new paried associates. 
 
Just learning the sounds of speech can take a while.  Then learning to write exclusivly in sound-signs requires a major adjustment.  On top of that we ask people to use a keyboard with  some 20 arbitrary assignments and associate these with 36 new letter-forms and 12 combinations. 
 
Perhaps the way to start off is by learning 36 uncombined Shavian sound signs and leave the combinations for later.  We could call this BASIC Shavian.
 
Unifon based transcriptions
Since I have reduced serveral orthographies to Unifon, perhaps I will do the same with Shavian.  All it takes is a reassignment of the Shavian sound-signs to the keys.  This is rather easy to do.
 
Once done, you could write in keyboard Unifon and display in Shavian, or IPA, or Soundspel, or whatever. 
 
/wuns dun, yU cCd rIt in kEbxrd yUnifon and displA in SAvicn, Or IPA, or sqndspel, Or wxtevcr.
 
KBU Displayed in Unifon [simulated]
*WUNS DUN, YÚ KÖD RÍT IN KÉB^RD YÚNIFON AND DISPLÁ IN ....
 
Disadvantages:
What this means is that the old fonts will no longer work until they are reassigned.
Advantages:
The keyboard would be more intuitive and easier to teach.
You can use the automated text converters to create messages in Shavian.
 
If you have a mesasge you cannot interpret, put it in the converter for a translation.
If you have a word or message you are unsure of how to write, cut and pasted it into the converter window and press convert.  
 
 
I would like four people in this discussion group to say they will take the time to check this out if I go to the work of creating the Unifon based font.
 
History
 
Unifon was developed for the Bendix corporation to transcribe all European languages into one set of sound signs.  There is a similar conversion on the University of London's SAMPA site.  However, linguists tend to be too precise. 
 
The description of a pronunciation does not need to be any closer than to allow someone who is unfamiliar with the language but famililar with the code to code and decode it.  If the non-speakers' articulations are close enough for a native speaker to understand, that is good enough. 
 
A linguist would say that a Spanish /o/ is not the same as an English /oU/.  This is true, but it doesn't really make any difference in terms of mutual understanding.  We can understand people who speak with an accent and this is the kind of difference we are usually talking about. 
 
There are more people who know how to speak several languages than there are people who know how to write them.  This is particularly the case for English because of the gap between how it is spoken and how it is written.
 
QUESTION
 
What is the default font to be used in this discussion group?  I have used Lionspaw below but this may not be the current preference.
 
/dOnt rFkql nQ frum FtiN qstDz At H spY.      Shavian keyboard
.dOnt rEkQl nq frum EtiN Qstcrz at Dc spo.                          Unifon

.dOnt rEkoil now frum EtiN oistarz qt Da spc.      ENgliS schwa-a
Dónt rékoyl frûm éting oysterz at ð spä.           ANSI Latin 1
Hi Steve
I agree that we might not be that far away from a working agreement.
I don't reject letter combinations altogether.
In fact, I would have to agree that we should situations where their
two equally valid ways to write the same word.
We do need to avoid unnecessary redundancy.
That's why I would like to avoid the use of Shaw Letter Ian and
would accept a prohibition on the use of Yew, because for most
English pronunciations it is a simple Construct of Yea + Ooze.
Looking at it in Shavian, the only difference between them is
ligature in any case.
3521

From: paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:34pm
Subject: Please Switch to the New Shaw Alphabet Forum

 
Hi Everybody
It looks like we have made the switch-over to the new Forum
successfully except John Cowan of Loglan fame. Dshep, Steve Augart
and dshep are also missing in action.
Everyone except a few lurkers have registered on the new site,
and we have at the beginning with some Shaw material for Newcommers
to get started on. See attached for more details.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve
> I hope everybody is switching over to the new Shaw Alphabet Forum
on
> Yahoo Groups. It is easy if you go in through www.shavian.org.
> Anyway I started up a few new threads over there to get things
going.
> I hope people will finish up any incomplete threads here and then
> put their new questions and comments out on the new Forum.
> Some of our older members are no longer active, or all lurked out
as
> I like to put it, so we will be able to get a better idea of the
> Shaw Alphabet community over there on the "Shaw Alphabet" forum.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> Hey Scott
> Please let me know if you have question about a more specific change
> to the Shaw Alphabet.
> >
> > Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
> > P.S. I posted a revised copy of your FAQ at the new forum.
> >
> > ___________________attached______________________________________
> >
> > --- In shavian@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > > I missed all the discussion on Paul's proposed modifications to
> > Shavian.
> > > Can someone give me the approximate dates on this discussion.
> > >
> > > I sent posted Pauls intro to the Shaw Alphabet and my glosses
as
> a
> > draft only.
> > > I wanted to find out more about the reactions to Paul's
> proposals
> > and the
> > > accuracy of what Paul and Steve have said.
> > >
> > > My own view is that any modification to Shavian should be
> clearly
> > indicated as
> > > a revision.
> > >
> > > I have a revision called PMF. The rationale for this revision
> was
> > to make
> > > the character shapes historical.
> > > http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/43pmf-cap.gif
> > >
> > > I missed the rationale for Paul's revision.
> > >
> > > comments appreciated.
> > >
> > > -Steve
3522

From: <stbetta@a...>
Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:29pm
Subject: Transcription challenge

 

Shavian enthusiasts,

Does someone want to come up with a better Shavian transcription for these words?

abnPmal, akseptabal, sAdal, Yfal, Yl fUl, yfal, Apl, ilMZan, AlMZan, imaj, imAjan

abnYrmal, akseptabal, sAdal, Yfal, Yl fUl, yfal, Apl, ilMZan, AlMZan, imaj, imAjan

ENgliS:  abnormal akseptabl, sqdl, ofl, ol fvl, cfal, qpl, ilwZan, clwZan, imaj, imqjan
ANSIFANSI: àbnormàl, àcseptàbl, sadl, olfl,  ôl ful, öfl, apl, iúzhàn, àlúzhàn, imàj, ìmajìn
WEBSTER: ab'norm&l, &ksept&bl, sad&l, of&l, äf&l, ol ful, ap&l, &lüZ&n, im&j, i'maj&n

green bar
Regularized Transcriptions  

Traditional Regularized Spelling 86%+ Phonemic Notations
 Word Cut Spelling

 RITE
transcription

 Truespel
transcription

transcription
abnormal 
acceptable 
saddle 
awlful 
all full
offal 
apple 
illusion
allusion
image
imagine
abnorml
acceptabl
sadl
awlfl
all full?
offl
apl
ilusion
alusion
image
imagin
abnormal
akseptable
saddl
awful
awl ful
offal
appl
ilusion  iluuzhan
alusion
imij  imaj
imajjan
abnnormool
aksseptibool
sadool
aulfool
aul fool
aufool
apool
illuezhin
ulluezhin
imij
immajin
abnormal or abnorml
acsepptabal -
saddal  or saddl
awlfal  or awlfl
ol fvl or awl fvl
offal  or ofl
appal  or appl
iluuzhan 
aluuzhan
imaj    immij
imajjin  imadjin 

• q-ref  dictionaries    • ozideas    â€¢ truespel converter    â€¢ IPA converter    • Soundspel
• www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett    •      •

ANSIFANSI: àbnormàl, àcseptàbl, sadl, olfl, ôlful, ôl ful, apl, iúzhàn, àlúzhàn, imàj, ìmajìn
SHAW: 
abnormal, akseptabal, sAdal, olfVl, ol fVl, Apl, ilMZan, AlMZan, imaj, imAjan

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